I've lost count at the amount of times this Labour government has attempted to marginalize large proportions of the UK population. Catholic church and it's followers being the latest victim. First we had the adoption row which is still raging and now this embryo research bill. As a catholic myself I don't support the bill but I am in favour of a FREE vote and I'm disgusted that Gordon Brown is banning Labour MPs from exercising their democratic right to vote against this bit of legislation.

I'm wondering whether this is the last nail in the coffin for his vile undemocratic government and whether this shows the need for electoral reform in this country. We are meant to be a democracy but the idea of the FREE parliamentary vote is vanishing and before we know it we will be living under fascism.

I thought we already were....

+1

+2

Religious nutters of any denomination should have no say whatsoever in the running of this country.

Personally I think it is undemocratic for 3 Catholic ministers to vote according to the diktat of their church who didn't elect them. Why should Ratzinger decide/influence what legislation is passed in our parliament via his puppets in the cabinet? I seem to remember Ruth Kelly previously saying that Opus Deii would not influence her political decision making.

I'm not saying they should but the whole point of our parliament is that MPs should have a free vote. If you really think that this bill has anything to do with research for curing disease please think again. You should take the time to read "BRAVE NEW WORLD". You have missed my point,

I am re-reading it again at the moment. Scary scary book.

It won't and it shouldn't but it should be the beliefs of the MP and the people that voted for her. What they are saying is that there should be a FREE vote....

Cardinal O'Brien's is not a nutter or extreme in anyway, what he is saying is that Gordon Brown is refusing an open debate and the fact that his party is not be clear with the facts. Do you know that the funding is coming from chemical giants that prominent leaders in military research.

Some people replying to this have missed the point, the point is about democratic choice and this process is being stopped by Brown.

It is very scary and this is the reason why such research is banned. Wasn't it Hitler that played around with this science.

I will read it and get back to you.

Dubsie you took the words from my mouth, I think I mentioned this on the off topic forum yesterday.

MP's are elected to represent their constituents, not the personal wishes of the prime minister. If this was not the case then there would be no reason to offer it to a vote as the outcome would be known from the outset.

Creation of half beast, half human is a disgusting and offensive thing to do. To be honest the people who carry this out deserve no protection from the wrath of those who are opposed to such barbarian ethics.

There are no excuses here, what Gordon is proposing is a violiation of human dignity, and if you are religious as he tells us he is, a direct violation of the many faiths of billions of people on this planet.

I am not religous, however I do have beliefs and the cornerstone of my beliefs is that human life does not have a value, it is priceless, it is god given, and any man that tampers with that life deserves to lose his own.

They're perfectly entitled to vote as they like but to qualify for such a luxury they have to enter Parliament as independents. Almost none do. And those that do are totally ineffectual as parliamentarians. They get nothing done. Those who make the mistake of jumping ship while in parliament soon get voted out and forgotten.

Our parliament has, over the centuries, developed into one made up of parties of people who have fairly similar views on many subjects. Almost every member of parliament is in place due to being voted in as a party follower. That's the benefit. The price is party loyalty.

In this particular case, they can either take their orders from Rome or from the party that they've taken advantage of up 'til now.

p

So they do not represent their constituents ?

What? What's going on?
Sorry, I was busy, playing Wolfenstein.
Oh, I see, the Pope of Rome and the Counter-Reformation sticking their velvet slippers in our polity again?

If Sir would step this way, I'm sure something that pinches less can be found ...
... Broon is in fact trying to protect these hapless tims in his party. It's a fairly safe bet that RKelly et al. would be fairly exposed to the displeasure of their voters if they went along with this maliciously ill-informed nonsense from Old Redsocks.

Col. Bogey kens he'll need every stooge he can muster if there's ever another election. Not thrusting young clever-clogses, just exactly the sort of 90cc. golems he's been careful to surround himself with already. Stalin isn't going to promote any Trotskys.

By removing their "free" vote he lets them off the hook and their primary allegiance, to Rome, can be fudged yet again. (Assuming they aren't secret apostates and actually believe in all this god bewlschitt. Big ask for a politician, I know).

Right, I'm off to put the speakers in the window and play the collected speeches of Dr. No to the neighbours. Serves them right for tormenting me with dreary dance music or whatever it's called.



[ed] couple of typos. Actually, it's probably quite cool to have loads of mistakes. Shows you've not sunk so low as to be dependent on spell-checkers.

I'm assuming, Laurejon, that due to your beliefs you have refused the Smallpox jab both for yourself and those for which you are responsible!

Under no circumstances would you have animal matter - cowpox virus - mixed with human matter. You are prepared, no doubt, to die of Smallpox rather than change your mind? And, to allow your loved ones, too, to die for your great cause?

p

Heard one female Catholic Labour MP on radio 4 this morning talking about having a free vote and about the sanctity of life. Would be interested to know which of these Catholic Mp's spouting out phrases like the 'sanctity of life' actually voted for the Iraq war. Sanctity of life? Hypocritical scumbags.

Yes, they are 'representatives' of their constituents but they are not 'delegates'. I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference to someone of your high intelligence, Laurejon.

Their constituents have given them authority to act on their behalf - not to try and guess what the majority opinion of 70,000 voters is on each and every subject as and when it arises in parliament.

p

[I'm assuming, Laurejon, that due to your beliefs you have refused the Smallpox jab both for yourself and those for which you are responsible!

Under no circumstances would you have animal matter - cowpox virus - mixed with human matter. You are prepared, no doubt, to die of Smallpox rather than change your mind? And, to allow your loved ones, too, to die for your great cause?

p
[/quote]

Digesting an animal is not anthing like creation of half man half beast.

This legislation if it goes ahead is going to be music to the ears of the religious groups who are of the opinion that the Devil will return to inhabit the earth, and that our leaders are indeed advocates of the Devil. You may think I am joking, but wait and see what happens when this kicks off. The murder of scientists pulling the legs off Bunny Rabbits is going to be a walk in the park by comparison.

Nice try though Pat, keep them coming.

So in your wide and noble experience, do you think the majority of the UK would vote YES for New Labour to create a Half Beast/Half Man (The Devil) for research purposes ?

I do love a loaded question

You have drifted into the realms of fantasy, Laurejon. Enjoy yourself.

p

All in favour raise your right left hooves

Thats no answer.

You mean like John Prescott ?

The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is getting its first airing.

The bill proposes permitting human/animal mix embryos.

The idea is that they mix the genes of humans and, say, a goat, creating a man/goat creature, mess around with it and then destroy it as best they can in the physical sense, the soul will go on to live forever however prayers will be said on behalf of the beast in the hope that both its creators souls, and the soul of the beast itself will rest in peace.

Gordon Brown has clearly shown himself to be a non believer.

Gordon Brown is clearly a opponent of Religion, an Opponent of the concept of God.

Gordon Brown is openly declaring War on Religious Groups and creating more division in the world.


Hows that Pat for your beloved Party of Stalinists ? Whats coming our way next, the research labs will be sited in Guantanamo Bay ?

LJ, what the hell are you going to do when (that's WHEN) this research goes ahead? It's not as though you can top yourself, on account of it being a mortal sin.
Go long silver bullets, garlic, stakes and crucifixes, it's your only hope, man!




(I wish you really believed all the stuff you come out with. You are like, the Emperor of Wind-up, dude )

front or rear, or middle?

Gordon Brown rejects the Geneva Convention, and now the Nuremburg Code under which the participants of Genetic Tampering swung from the gallows.

The Nuremberg Code is a set of principles for human experimentation set as a result of the Subsequent Nuremberg Trials at the end of the Second World War. Specifically, they were in response to the inhumane Nazi human experimentation carried out during the war by individuals such as Dr. Josef Mengele.

In August 1947, the judges delivered their verdict in the "Doctors' Trial" against Karl Brandt and several others. They also delivered their opinion on medical experimentation on human beings. Several of the accused had argued that their experiments differed little from pre-war ones and that there was no law that differentiated between legal and illegal experiments.

In April of the same year, Dr. Leo Alexander had submitted to the Counsel for War Crimes six points defining legitimate medical research. The trial verdict adopted these points and added an extra four. The ten points constituted the "Nuremberg Code". Although the legal force of the document was not established and it was not incorporated directly into either the American or German law, the Nuremberg Code and the related Declaration of Helsinki are the basis for the Code of Federal Regulations Title 45 Volume 46[1], which are the regulations issued by the United States Department of Health and Human Services governing federally funded research in the United States. In addition, the Nuremberg code has also been incorporated into the law of individual states such as California, and other countries.

The Nuremberg code includes such principles as informed consent and absence of coercion; properly formulated scientific experimentation; and beneficence towards experiment participants.

The ten points[citation needed] are:

The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonable to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.
The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.
The experiment should be so designed and based on the results of animal experimentation and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study that the anticipated results will justify the performance of the experiment.
The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.
No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects.
The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.
Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to protect the experimental subject against even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death.
The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The highest degree of skill and care should be required through all stages of the experiment of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.
During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible.
During the course of the experiment the scientist in charge must be prepared to terminate the experiment at any stage, if he has probable cause to believe, in the exercise of the good faith, superior skill and careful judgment required of him that a continuation of the experiment is likely to result in injury, disability, or death to the experimental subject.

I think this patprimer guy is a political stooge. It is well recognised in the online Telegraph, there are individuals who are clearly there to sew discord and tow the party line. They are extremely disruptive and they exhibit unshakable political dogma. Many posters there suspect these individuals are being paid by the government to troll internet forums

Are you a Common Purpose stooge patprimer, being paid by NuFascist to troll internet forums perchance?

and the prize for the most off-topic topic goes to...

So the labour party line is to sew dischord.

They dont need internet trolls to do that.

+1

I'd go on to say they shouldn't be allowed to post in the main HPC forum.

ban all zealots. make a law. dont let them speak. make them angry.

see what they go on to do.

Wo, way too much effort involved. Given that they appear be mostly speaking in tongues already, I don't think anybody's the slightest bit bothered.

write angry posts on www.armagideonverysoon.com?

Ah, I take it you've seen this thread as well then?

Before it was just the folks who were outpriced of the market that hated this government. Now with negative equity looming for millions, home owners will also hate this government.

This government has sat around and watched prices reach rediculous levels. Now that the market is starting to correct, they are trying to prop it up.

So what's new? When has Brown allowed open debate in Parliament and been clear with the facts about a proposed law?

Och aye. While you were posting, I was just on there have a good old bitch about the paranormal blitzkreig that seems to have cut loose, now the mods are (on their hols/drunk/giving whoever a good seeing to)

What this country needs is a proper war, not these pifling little third world police actions, no, proper fighting with zeppelins and everythin.

I dunno, all that hedonistic sex appeals to me. Mmmm..... pneumatic....


Not really. The Nazi's were fond of their own version of neo-Darwinism, which involved (in part) an effort to produce "pedigree" humans via selective breeding. Much the same way that horses and dogs are bred for certain characteristics. This policy did, however, involved the murder of many mentally handicapped Germans and the forced sterilization of many more.

Even Josef Mengele was primarily interested in researching heredity rather than eugenics. Ernst Rüdin was probably the closest approximation to a modern eugenicist, but since modern day genetic engineering simply did not exist in the 1940s, there can be no direct comparison.

This bill paves the way for more research and before you know it they will designing humans without freewill. Just like the I.D card like so many of you oppose this bit of legislation has nothing to do with finding a cure for disease, just the same as GM foods have nothing to do with feeding the starving.

This government is turning you against the church, do you think that the church shouldn't have a voice but then who should. If we take that attitude then at some point will we start saying what right have we to speak out and then before you know it we don't have a voice at all.

Legislation such as this comes in small steps, slowly chipping away at our rights and freedoms. We are heading towards a dark and dangerous era.

That man's a genius! It's a master stroke!

MP's who take their orders from Rome are allowed a free vote as long as their action has no effect on the result! Everybody's happy! (Apart from those weirdos who have converted this innocent and benevolent bill into some kind of far-fetched 'MONSTER CREATING' action. But, of course, we don't know any of those brainless cretins, do we?)

Happy Days!

p

Pat you are listed as a Political Troll! Looks like you've been rumbled mate.

Oops! Did I not follow the Daily Mail line? Oh dear! Then I must be a Political Troll! Obvious, ain't it?

p

I agree with your main point that a government alienates an increasing number of people during its lifetime until its alienated enough people to vote it out of office

It was the same with the last tory government and its happening with the current shower
I agree there should be more free votes also

In addition to them robbing pensions we'll all have to pay to fund the Iraq war and the bailing out of the banking system

However I disagree with the stance of the catholic church on some issues
They should be trying to have a positive influence rather than holding up progress which can help people in the real world