Together with a fellow HPCer, I'm renting a two-bed house in Cambridge. When we moved in the tiling in the bathroom was cracked, and some of the grouting had failed and been bodged up with some brown gunge. Every time you shower you have to put a cloth by the bath to catch the water that leaks out from underneath.

So we inform the rental agency. Again, and again, and again...meanwhile a water stain develops on the wall in the room underneath.

Finally they send someone to estimate then two days ago, after 16 months, the tiler comes round to arrange to fix it next week.

Chat with tiler: yes, it's all failed, we'll have to cut out most of it and completely redo it. I said it's been like this for months and the last time the plumber came round he said we should stop using the shower. I said no; it's a rental, I'm paying for a service. Fixing it is their problem. We've told them over and over and over. Why should we have to run baths every time when we're paying for a shower? I repeated this to the tiler; he said absolutely right. It's like buying a pair of trousers in a shop and finding half of one of the legs is missing.

He then said that he and the plumber/heating company are doing a lot of work on btl property for this agency. Because, as with the house we're in, they've all been done up on the cheap so they look nice enough but they cut loads of corners. So lots of things go wrong and have to be redone. In other words next time you get some whingeing btler saying how they provide a service by providing housing, what seems to be the case is that they buy up knackered houses, tart them up on the cheap, then let them out and expect their tenants to treat them incredibly gently because they're so fragile. Funnily enough RenterGirl said the same in the "Guardian" recently - that all these new-builds look nice enough when they're new but they're so fragile you have to be careful you don't put your elbow through the plasterboard walls.

Meanwhile the leak from the washing machine (which took the plumber two goes to fix) has turned the cheap Ikea laminate flooring in the kitchen into a sea of dips and hollows. What sort of idiot would put laminate fake wood floor in a kitchen? Floor, mopping, kitchen, wouldn't you think? But no - these btlers are so gob-smackingly stupid they put Ikea laminate flooring at £5 a square metre in a kitchen and expect it to be pristine for years. When it gets damp, a thick brown goo oozes out between the boards that only comes off with vinegar.

Btlers. Don't you just hate them. So mind-bogglingly stupid and tight-fisted, they deserve to lose the shirts off their backs. And hopefully they will.

Nice rant.
Keep up the good work.

You get what you pay for....Suggest you go and buy a house of your own or respect the individual that is providing a property for you to rent.

Regardless of whether you like BTLers (who I agree have driven up the price the low end of the market) or not, there is a market for people who want rental property and those who buy. I rent and I let (with Ikea flooring which is no different to other laminated flooring just costs less) I say each to their own, but respect for somebody elses property is a fair request is it not? Perhaps you might earn some good will by spending a fiver on grout and fixing the problem yourself before it got too bad, it would make your house a more pleasant place to live.

F*ck off Matt you pr*ck

Your intellectual prowess is a shining light to us all... !

What comes around goes around is all I have to say

Might I suggest that if you're going to comment on the intellectual abilities of others, you run your comments past a spell-checker. That way you might avoid coming across as a complete f*ckwit.

Edit: Missing indefinite article

grow up...

Touchy, aren't we

Yeah - f*ck off Matt you n00b pr1ck

If the best you can do is swear at me I pity you, I suggest you go back under your student rock and come back when you enter the real world where we work for a living.

Sadly people like you remove all credibility from this website

Ah Southsea, I see your problem, looked at your profile, you are one of those socialist worker, world owes me a living types, now I understand that any suggestion of taking any responsibility for yourself would be an alien concept...

Seconded - I've been forced to rent because BTLers have driven up the market, and I'm sick of arrogant landlords who think I should put up a poorly maintained property.

The last place I rented is now on the market at a stupid price, I look forward to watchin it not sell

I don't disagree either, I too am forced to rent because I can not possibly afford to buy a house near my work that can house my three children.

However BTL is just one aspect of the housing bubble, it is largely cheap and easy money that has created it, the property we rent is the one bedroom flat my wife bought in 1999 to live in for 4 years before we had a family. I too hope for a crash so we can sell up our only property and get on the family house market.

In the late seventies and early eighties the socialist 1977 tenant act killed the rental market (hence the 1985 housing act), there was no rental market at all without a rental market you can have a mobile workforce, higher education etc. It is an absolute requirement.

However the market is now imbalance and market forces will correct it, I have no idea how a recent BTL'er makes money, our mortgage on the flat is 25% of the market value and yet with mortgage (repayment), repairs and costs we only just break even, don't forget agent fees are 12% of rent, finders fees are 10% of annual rental (120% of monthly), like all bubbles the fools have jumped in and you can comfort yourself knowing they will all lose money hand over fist. The bubble will burst.

Back to the tread though, most of the complaints on this board are about BTL's going to the wall or losing deposits, I have rented three houses now and got my full deposit back no questions because I take on some of the responsibility for maintaining the house like mending water leaks, loose hinges, washing machine repairs etc.. It saves the LL money and if they are decent people as 70% are they respect that and you get your deposit back. I have now met one of the 30% who isn't decent so I shall just withhold the last two months rent. I will still look after the house though as she will not have a leg to stand on if she takes me to court.

So why the F off, why not engage a reasonable conversation?

Matt is a w*nker la la la

I arrest my case !!!

You mean `rest your case` muppet!

Get what you pay for? We pay full market rent - so what's the issue?

As for laminated flooring, the point remains - what sort of idiot puts laminate wooden flooring in a kitchen? And, for that matter, in the downstairs loo. These are rooms that are normally fitted with water-resistant flooring materials because, surprise surprise, the floors normally get wet when you clean them.

As for "earning good will", we have a standard contract with a letting agent a mile long that says we aren't allowed to do anything at all to the house. When you buy a car or a piece of electrical equipment and it says tampering with it will invalidate the warranty, only an idiot tampers with it if it breaks. Anyone with sense takes it back to the shop and asks them to fix it. If we "bodge up" the tiling, we then become responsible for it. Why should we do that, when it specifically breaks the terms of our contract?

Perhaps the sorts of responses you are getting from others tells you something about your approach. But thanks for keeping my thread at the top of the board.

Amateur BTL tossers?

Yep

What is the difference between an amateur BTL tosser and a proffesional BTL, my experience is you can spend lots of money and it will be trashed in 5 years or a little money and it will trashed in 5 years. It is amazing how good you can make a Jewson "rental home" kitchen look...

I think what you mean is a new BTL vs. an old BLT, most private rental property is and always has been owned by "Amateurs"

No. that's not what I mean. There's plenty old landlords that are a nasty bunch. I guess being a landlord is like being a lawyer or a baliff, you have to have a certain morality (or lack of) to do it.

I've been with a few landlords in my time, and I've never met a nice one.

suggest you go and live in a cave then....

Yeah, right Matt - that`s a really intelligent answer to a valid problem. I hope you get Nicholas van Hoogstraten as your next landlord - you f*kkn pr1ck

No, I just have to learn my rights and not take any of their bull***t. Landlords are quite often just bullies, and I treat them as such.

I met an especially bad one last year that lost a LOT of money because he tried it on with me.

if you had read any of my treads you would know that I am also trapped in a nightmare with a loony LL, for example she tried to bill me £450 for a boiler service. my point is there are bad LL's and good one, just as there are bad tenants and good ones. If you have ever had a house returned totally trashed you would understand why LL's sometimes the way they are... some LL's will always be bullies but most are normal people who respond to common decency

I'll never have a house returned in any state, because I'll never be a landlord. As I said, I don't have the lack of morals to be one.

I rented abroad for many years and never had one problem. I think the laws need to be changed here to help protect the tennant. I think one thing we could all do is start writing to our local MP.
Some LL's are really bad they don't carry out basic repairs or give tennants the run round for months avoiding anything but taking the rent. I don't like the BTL scenario because it has given complete ar55oles the chance to become LLs and has pushed up the market.
I was a LL years ago and I can't even remember the amount of times the tennants did a moonlight flit or ran off with the furniture etc. I also had to put in new kitchen and bathroom after one tennancy. I couldn't wait to get rid of the place. The difference is that I was able to buy a place then whereas now so many are not through no fault of their own and are at the mercy of unscrupulous *******
Things have come full circle now and I have a LL that just wants the rent and doesn't feel obliged to do repairs. The Agents have been excellent, can't fault them and I have even less love for LAs. The LL now wants to manage the property, all sorts of reasons except the truth commission and we have been model tennants.
I am in a position that I can move but for many it is not so easy and that makes me quite angry.

Hmmmm. What's happened to goodwill? It sounds to me as if your experiences mirror those of the rest of us. Renting is buying a service, why should it matter what the personality or experiences of the landlord have been/are? It isn't my problem if the car rental or shop staff or whoever have had a bad day in other areas of life - I expect them to behave professionally and put their issues to one side. Why is it uniquely landlords that have to be propitiated by their tenants prostrating themselves in worship of the oh-so-marvelous providers of a roof over the heads?

This return to renting is a return to feudalism. It's sh!te. I can't see any reason to change my view that btling is fundamentally immoral - it feeds landlords' greed and delusions of grandeur and corrodes peoples' work ethic. Inside Track specifically advertise their "services" on the basis that you can live on "easy street" rather than graft for a living. And it feeds their egos by putting them in a position of power over their tenants. Frankly btlers are little better than concentration camp guards - there's a nice provocative argument point!

That's a very unfair and unkind comparison.

The guards were only following orders. BTLers do it off their own back

I agree with your arguement and I agree that a combination of events including "jump in to the bubble" BTL LL's have pushed prices to point where people (me included) can't afford to buy the house they need. But a healthy rental market is required to keep the market bouyant, students (southsea), migrant workers, divorce, ecomonic movement etc. if you own a house you are fairly tied down which huge huge moving costs, if you rent you have options.

Secondly the cost to rent is much cheaper than the cost to own as of 2001 onwards, I just could not mortgage the house I live in and yet I can rent with no maintenance costs, thirdly you are much better protected as a renter than an owner, if you fall on hard time you can claim housing benefit, there is no such protection for owners.

I have had some really nice landlord in my time, my last one gave me a free month rent because I fitted a new fridge and mended the washing machine for her, she also gave me my deposit back the day I left. My current one is just a headcase and I firmly beleive there ought to be legislation to prevent these people renting houses. She really is on a grandeous power trip over her plebby tenants but I know my rights and by god I have enforced them. It goes back to the point that if your LL is vagely normal then I found a favour earns a favour or good will, some LL are just a lost cause.

Finally for those that have called me all sorts for being an LL as well, I have some perfect example of what a good LL can be. The tenants complained about the loony neighbour so we had a new higher fence built, we are selling the flat because we are moving further West and it is too far away and so to compensate for the hassle we are giving them a £100 discount on the rent a month every month from the point we decided to sell, we have also given them 4 months notice so they have plenty of time to find a new place. Honestly not all landlord are bad, we are only LL's because we worked abroad for a while and had a family, we didn't jump on the bandwagon. I good LL should realise the value of tenant and do their best to keep them happy, it is a two way street, anyway there is a glut of the wrong properties on the rental market which will put the many of the idiots out of business

really pushing the boat out are we not... that reply was just sooooo valuable

Why should the tenant have to pay a single penny towards the maintenance of the property ?

The service provider (landlord) is charging an amount of money on a recurring basis for the provision of a service (housing). The charge for this service should factor in a suitable amount to cover the maintenance of the property and the landlord should have a sufficient contingency fund to cover any really significant costs - e.g. boiler blowing. If the landlord has failed to do this, either to maximise profits, minimise the rent to encourage purchasers of their service or whatever, then it is the landlord's problem. The landlord has a choice, either fix the problems with the house or face losing the tenants. Even a month's void in today's market could be the difference between investment success and investment failure - and believe me, it is eye opening how quickly a bad landlord can get a reputation amongst the local rental population which can easily destroy their investment.

Oh, and I'm not one of the "socialist" types you appear to have a grudge against - I've got plenty of investments (not rental property - the yields simply aren't worth the risk) and support the "capitalist" system - I just believe in treating people with the same respect and dignity I would expect them to give me - when hard-working and honest people help me rather than hinder me, I am enthused to help them too - the society bit of socialism, is actually quite a good thing in the long term.

What would happen, say, if you tried to fix the washing machine but damaged it, for which you would have to pay. Would you honestly advise that the majority of tennants shoud take on this type of task and take risks that should be deferred to the landlord?

Good point and the golden standard was set by Lord Denning in test case on LL responsibility in the late 70's which states a tenant should behave in a tenant like manner that includes keeping the house clean in such a way the disrepair by neglect is avoided and carry basic repairs such as changing a tap washer or draining down the central heating system if leaving the property for any period.

I happen to think draining down the heating is big job beyond the wit of most people but the Lord Denning statement is still the most used in court.

The answer to your question is the LL "should" pay if there is no contractual agreement otherwise (domestic appliances are not covers by law) but it is not clear cut

What I would argue is a tenant should know how and where to isolate the main electricity and water supply and at least be able to pull out the washing machine and turning off the little taps that isolate the hot and cold supply. A bit of water on cheap Ikea floor will do it no harm, a lot of water that gets underneath it will wreck it as it will any covering (lino is worst it gets all stinky). I would then argue if and only if you are good at DIY and as in my case you find it easier to do the job than get in to a nonsense "why did you break it" conversation with the agent, then do it yourself to save the effort. My landlord is like the flaming spanish inquisition and I will do anything to keep her away.

My last point based on this whole conversation, regardless of whether you dispise LL's or not, imagine the situation of the original post, Munro's crappy agent just ingnores him and the bathroom tiles just get browner and browner and the stain on the ceiling just gets worse and worse... there is no dispute the agent is way at fault but....

As you lare eaving the landlord comes round and their last memory of their house is smart and tidy (even with the cheap Ikea floor) place and then they see water stains and a knackered floor and they about to make a decision on whether to give you your deposit in full or not. Regardless of whether they are a nice person or not they will be thinking right how much of the deposit can I hold to fix this. Or you see there is a bit of problem with the grout, the agent is just ignoring you so you pop in to B&Q pick up a small tub of grout for £2.99 use and cheap cloth and fill the gaps with fresh smart white grout. Role forward, the LL does the inspection sees and house with some wear and tear but much like they last saw it and you get your deposit back. Regardless of wrong or right, which was easier, the tub of grout or big fight and potential a loss of a £100+ of deposit? That is my point, not is it wrong or right capitalist or socialist etc. it is just action and consiquence

One other thing, the higher the monthly rent the more the expectation to do the "little jobs" untill you reach £2087 per month (potentiallt a joint student house for example) where the section 11 of 1985 housing act no longer applies and there are no rules on maintenance at, it is 100% contractual (it is considered a comercial rent).

The tilers have been and gone, after retiling the whole bath area. It turned out it had been bodged at least twice - the original bathroom peeps had run out of damp-resistant plasterboard so most of the wall behind the showered had been fitted with standard plasterboard. Then they fitted the tiles wrongly, with blobs of tile cement rather than spreading it properly.

Now we're waiting for them to come back and fix the shower back and tidy up the details. Meanwhile I will have to photograph the stain they've kindly left on the landing carpet and e-mail that to the rental agency, to make sure they don't try and blame that on us. Something of a PITA - and proves the tilers original comment that lots of btls have been done up on the cheap with lots of corners cut.

Meanwhile munro is a she not a he, poor choice of name in the first place! Could change it but then I guess I'd be delisted as a multi-id troll. If I ever sign up to another forum I'll make sure I'm homelovinghormonecrazynestwantingfluffybunnywunny or something like that!