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Belfast Boy
Japan is the next sub-prime flashpoint

QUOTE
Japan is the next sub-prime flashpoint
Last Updated: 12:33am GMT 10/02/2008



There is still $300bn of bad debt out there, and Japan could be hiding most of it. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reports

Just as battered investors had begun to glimpse signs of recovery in America, the next shoe has dropped with an almighty thud in Japan. Echoes are rumbling across the Far East.

China's Year of the Rat raceadvertisement
The Tokyo bourse has crumbled, suffering the worst start to the year since the Second World War. The Nikkei index is down 17 per cent since Christmas, and the shares of Japanese banks are leading the slide. Mizuho Financial, Mitsubishi UFJ and Sumitomo Mitsui have all been punished as hard or even harder than those US banks at the epicentre of the sub-prime debacle.

The nagging fear is that Japan's lenders - the conduit for the world's greatest stash of savings - have taken on a far bigger chunk of mortgage securities, collateralised loans obligations and other exotica from America's structured credit boom than they have yet revealed.

Americans and Europeans have so far confessed to $130bn of the estimated $400bn to $500bn of wealth that has vanished into the sub-prime hole. Somebody, somewhere, must be sitting on a vast nexus of undisclosed losses. We may find out soon enough whether the hold-outs are in Japan. The banks have to come clean under the country's strict new audit codes by the end of the tax year in March.

"We think this is where the next big problem is going to pop up," said Hans Redeker, currency chief at BNP Paribas.

"We know from Bank of Japan's lending survey that the banks are already tightening hard, so something is brewing. Right now, we are in the lull before the second storm in global markets, and Asia is going to be the source of the nasty surprises," he said.

The iTraxx Japan index measuring default risk of 50 Japanese companies saw its biggest one-day jump ever on Thursday to 77.5. Rightly or wrongly, it is flashing a serious distress signal.

What we know is that Japan's economy - still the second biggest in the world by far - has fallen over a cliff since October. It remains joined to America's hip after all. The decoupling theory has failed its first test.

Japan's machine orders dropped 2.8 per cent in November and a further 3.2 per cent in December. January housing starts fell to the lowest in 40 years, down 18 per cent on the year. Tokyo property was off 22 per cent. Can this still be blamed purely on a change in building rules?

"Recession is a clear and present danger in Japan," said Tetsufumi Yamakawa, chief Japan economist for Goldman Sachs. "The leading indicators are deteriorating very sharply. Inventory is piling up at a rapid pace. There are clear signs of deceleration in exports of steel and semi-conductors to China," he said.

Yes, China. It turns out that the intra-Asia trade that was supposed to immunise the region against a slump is a disguised supply-chain ending up in the US market. American shoppers still make 30 per cent of global demand, just as it did a decade ago. Nothing has really changed.

"We think the Bank of Japan may have to start easing by the middle of the year," said Yamakawa.

There is not much monetary ammo left. Interest rates are 0.5 per cent. So it's back to zero, and helicopters of central bank cash ("quantitative easing"), those peculiar hallmarks of Japan's past battle with deflation. The brief attempt to "normalise" Japan Inc has already failed.

We tend to forget that Japan remains the world's top creditor nation by far, the shy master of fate. The country's net foreign assets of $3,000bn roughly match the net debts of the US.

The yen "carry trade" - borrowing cheap in Tokyo to chase yields from New Zealand, to Brazil, Iceland, and above all Britain - has juiced the global asset boom this decade by $1,000bn. It is perhaps the biggest liquidity pump of them all, yet it stopped pumping in August. Indeed, it is sucking the money back out again. The yen is soaring.

Where have the Japanese recycled the quarter trillion dollars they earn each year from their surplus? Official data shows that their holdings in US Treasury bonds have not risen.

The Swiss offer us a clue, says Redeker. They are Europe's Japanese, champion savers looking for returns abroad. They devoured US sub-prime debt on a much bigger scale per capita than the Americans. Hence the $24bn in write-downs by UBS.

So far, Japan's biggest three banks have admitted to just $4.7bn in total losses between them. The figure is rising. Mitsubishi, the biggest, has just raised its tally to 12 times the sum admitted in November. This looks like a replay of the early 1990s when fear of losing face delayed the awful news.

Hong Liang, Beijing economist for Goldman Sachs, is not much more hopeful about China's prospects this year. "The combination of a US slowdown and monetary tightening in China is never welcome, but the accumulated problems have to be resolved this year," she said.

Inflation at 6.9 per cent is getting out of hand. The root cause of overheating is the weak yuan. The central bank has piled up $1,500bn of foreign reserves trying to stop it rising. The longer this goes on, the more inflationary it becomes. So Beijing has begun to step up the pace of revaluation, letting the yuan rise at an annual rate of 20 per cent in January. There will be casualties. Large chunks of China's manufacturing export industry have wafer-thin margins. A rising yuan tips them into the red.

China's mercantilist drive for export share is a double-edged strategy. The trade surplus has risen at $80bn a year, increasing tenfold since 2002 while the economy has merely doubled. The result is that China is as dependent on the US economy as Mexico.

So the storm spreads East. Haruhiko Kuroda, head of the Asian Development Bank, warned that the region would catch a cold after all as the US sniffles and sneezes. "Asian economies are not totally immune. A significant slowdown in the US economy will most certainly affect the region's growth," he said.

The global watchdogs are scrambling to rewrite the script. The World Bank has cut its China growth forecast from 10.8 per cent to 9.6 per cent in 2008. Private banks are slashing deeper.

Once the striptease starts on the onset of a global downturn, it usually has a long way to run.


I am reading alot of negative press articles about Japan.

Post all relevant articles here please.
Belfast Boy
Interesting comments from the main forum - click here.
Belfast Boy
Some interesting information about Japan in this article...

Telegraph - click here.

QUOTE
Britons cling to a comforting notion that overpopulated islands with a shortage of land can never suffer a sharp fall in house prices. Such illusions are often at the root of the most extreme asset bubbles.

Some of the most spectacular property crashes over the last 60 years occurred in the Pacific rim islands during the 1990s. Tokyo land prices fell 80pc in Japan's deflation. Property prices fell 63pc in Hong Kong, and 56pc in Taiwan. Each is a more crowded island than Britain. In each, the bust followed rampant misuse of debt leverage. Closer to home, we see a crunch in Ireland. Dublin property prices fell roughly 10pc in 2007. A study by Trinity College Dublin said values may halve before the excesses of the credit boom are fully purged.



md23040
QUOTE (Belfast Boy @ Feb 18 2008, 12:31 PM) *
Some interesting information about Japan in this article...

Interesting article but you have to remember the Telegraph has a complete Tory agenda and out to hang Labour in any shape or form. But to quote the Telegraph

Some of the most spectacular property crashes over the last 60 years occurred in the Pacific rim islands during the 1990s. Tokyo land prices fell 80pc in Japan's deflation.

The deflation within Tokyo came out at 73% in residential with 33% nominal fall. The price of property today is still 12 x times average Japanese income for central five wards and 8/10 for outlying suburbs, so it is not cheap by any standards. Tokyo and Japan is unique in that it has huge mountain ranges at the back of its shoreline, which are impossible to develop. But most of the trouble in its market, according to Money week was caused by the way it’s a very secretive society and was in denial. Especially its banks over the level of bad debts. It took them over seven years to come clean and four years for the government to do anything, as the crisis spun out of control. Personally I'm glad to have sold out of the Topix. Very few thought the Japanese banks to have exposure to the subprime that is now re-rated to $400bn from $120bn, and according to the G7 meeting much could be in Japan. Indeed the iTraxx index in Japan had its biggest one day leap last week. The index measures the default risk of its 50 largest companies...

Property prices fell 63pc in Hong Kong, and 56pc in Taiwan.

HK property prices fell after the Chinese took over. It was a unique example of the capital fleeing out of the principality, especially Indians who feared the Chinese regime and moved to Toronto. The property market returned with a vengeance quickly after under Chinese rule, but then SARS devastated it once more. Lately the market has picked up considerably. It is one of the global property hot spots for speculation amongst SWFs and hedge funds. Don’t know much about Taiwan apart from the time US productivity hit back against the whole region in the early 1990's. It had a huge effect on many tiger economies most notably Taiwan and Indonesia – as well as property values going south big time, the stock exchanges were worse affected.

Closer to home, we see a crunch in Ireland. Dublin property prices fell roughly 10pc in 2007. A study by Trinity College Dublin said values may halve before the excesses of the credit boom are fully purged.

Anythings possible. Very few things are probable...Interesting progamme tonight on Channel 4 about the banking screw up. These people are the most idiotic and the government both here and the States bails them out. But, the city creates 36% of all the tax take in the UK so they are allowed to make the odds **** up, it seems.
Belfast Boy
Comments on the main thread about the above Telegraph article and Japan...

Main forum discussion - click here.

Lots of discussion from people who are from Japan or have family from Japan.

One guy says he was there in January - with his wife who is from Japan - looking at houses and they were 1/2 UK prices, for much larger properties.

md23040 you need to get over there straight away and tell him he is talking a load of sh1t. tongue.gif
md23040
Average Price of Real Estate in Tokyo (per m2)

Azabu - Hiroo¥ 1,671,788/m2 Roppongi – Akasaka ¥ 1,851,766/m2

Aoyama - Omotesando¥ 1,331,868/m2 Shirokane – Meguro ¥ 1,279,294/m2

Shibuya ¥ 1,474,249/m2 Ebisu – Daikanyama ¥ 1,365,546/m2

Yoyogi ¥ 1,079,178/m2 Shinagawa – Gotanda ¥ 1,210,525/m2

source housing in Japan.net

You must really examine your head with a doctor. If you read anything on the main board, do not pass it off as gospel, even along with one Belfast Telegraph article - research it a bit more thoroughly. Above are the main areas of Tokyo [23 wards] and the price price square metre. Ftr the £1= ¥211. So to compare an average 1750 square foot house, [this is the average in the UK]

1750/10.76 = 162.63 square metres.

162.63 X £6312 [Average pstubo] =£1,025,500m [Median price]

Where in the UK, is this average price? Yields btw are on average 5% and salaries are on average £33,000. Note Tokyo as a megalopolis has a population near to 60m, depending where you class as one city ending and another beginning. Property is priced according to proximity to a railway station. Like China, gardens are non-existent. An upper class family would dwell in a town house no bigger than 1100 square feet.

The Telegraph article probably found something in the outlying eastern seaboard region of Mito. You may find something on the island of Yaku Shima comparable to the UK but find me anywhere in London cheaper than Chiba in the south central district of Tokyo.

Please DYOR and stop wasting my time having to reply to your twaddle. It’s clear you do not know your ass from your elbow in the market, nor have you ever been. Finally it maybe low value at the moment but it is still easy to get burn’t here, same as China….

One point is correct with deflation over the last number of years the city is very cheap compared to the 1980's. A taxi ride is reasonable compared to the prices quoted 15 years ago. The standard of restaurants much higher and much cheaper than London. One restaurant in London for Valentines night charged £10,000 per couple [Windows] although; a diamond ring was thrown in with the offer...
prophet-profit
I have to say Belfast Boy that by putting up a 'Japan Thread' in the NI Forum you must be implying some comparative similiarities with Japan. If this is your reasoning, than I suspect it is along the lines of the correction pattern displayed by Japan following their 90s property bubble?

However, when I have looked at drawing comparison between NI and Japan, I have not continued due to the nature of the 'correction' there (post-peak) - I saw a really good graph the other day (could have been t'other site - anyone?) which showed a flat (2-3 year) peak top, followed by a faster decline and then turning into a very long so decline leading to plateau (and now some incline).

Anyway, my point is, I found it far more relevant to compare NI with the correction experienced in G.London and the South East for a variety of reasons including the fact that the decline in the initial stages here will be nothing like the 'stubborn' top of the peak experienced in 90s Japan*. Also count demographics and currency into that equation as well.

edit - similarly, the race to the top in Japan was quite astronomic (even by NI standards!)

2nd edit - I have found this graph which probably illustrates more than anything the complexity of the Japanese market (ie. rural Japan vs Japanese cities)

Click to view attachment

please note my comments on the stubborn peak relate to cities / but I would be interested to see a graph for Tokyo alone

*my opinion of course but there is corroborative evidence to back this
prophet-profit
addendum to above:

Also when looking at the nature of the correction in Japan (cities), it took a very long time for prices to return to what they were before ( just under 20 years). Therefore, I would be interested to know BB if these were your own thoughts regarding NI?

- PS - I do not know if the graph is inflation adjusted

edit just realized what a badly worded question that was dry.gif

what I mean to ask is do you think 60-70% of the hpi gains will be lost and over such a long period (20 years) pre and post boom as was seen in the Japanese Cities?

again - I don't the know if the graph in the above post is inflation adjusted by expect not
Belfast Boy
IMHO... no we will not see a Japanese style deflation of our housing bubble. Japan had high personal savings, large manufacturing base, large export market and were able to maintain high employment. Does the UK have a similar economy? No!

Especially with the credit crunch: We are much more likely to see the short, sharp, shock senario you are talking about.

The reason I post about Japan is so people are aware that lowering interest rates is unlikely to save the housing market. Today in Japan the base rate is 0.5% and mortgage rates are 2.35%. Compare that with the UK...
prophet-profit
QUOTE (Belfast Boy @ Feb 18 2008, 07:47 PM) *
The reason I post about Japan is so people are aware that lowering interest rates is unlikely to save the housing market. Today in Japan the base rate is 0.5% and mortage rates are 2.35%. Compare that with the UK...


Thanks for the clarification. I was genuinely confused regarding the comparison with NI and my implied similarity (on your behalf) was wrong.

subby
QUOTE (md23040 @ Feb 18 2008, 04:51 PM) *
Please DYOR and stop wasting my time having to reply to your twaddle. It’s clear you do not know your ass from your elbow in the market, nor have you ever been.


bloody hell MD...that's out of order

so what we're not all economic geniuses like you...no need for that language mad.gif the forum is for people to give their thoughts that's all...
prophet-profit
If I may just step in here Subby............

No disrespect to either BB or md, but BB winds up md in equal measure to md's responses.

I don't want to pick fights with anyone here (even if they are seen as 'Banter')

Vicmac and I had a few run-ins in the past and it was to the detriment of the thread and all the other posters here. and I have to say, following my bouts with Vicmac, I have far more respect for him and wish we hadn't deviated down that road.....

Basically, what I am saying is I hope these two posters can reach a happy medium, whilst the rest of us keep out of the 'banter'

Peace , Love and Respect everyone rolleyes.gif

Belfast Boy
QUOTE (prophet-profit @ Feb 18 2008, 08:40 PM) *
If I may just step in here Subby............

No disrespect to either BB or md, but BB winds up md in equal measure to md's responses.

Vicmac64 was having a go at everyone at one stage. But he does seem to have settled down a bit now.

Yeah, I'm always winding up md23040. It's called bull baiting wink.gif

Though I was thinking of calling it, 'throwing pie at the VI guy!'

Or maybe, 'throwing coal at that big troll!'

... as you can see I don't take the whole thing too seriously. tongue.gif
md23040
QUOTE (subby @ Feb 18 2008, 08:29 PM) *
bloody hell MD...that's out of order.so what we're not all economic geniuses like you...no need for that language mad.gif the forum is for people to give their thoughts that's all...


Because BB tried to stitch me up on the main site...Pure and simple. When I give information I do not post and try and bluff. But give only factual, bipartisan information only...

The reason IR's was cut in Japan aggressively was to maintain financial stability. Please search back pieces on Moneyweek. The reason why residential property did not respond was that the BoJ instructed banks to maintain a much stricter lending criterion. Much less LTV than anything in Europe. The rate cuts were to stimulate the industrial side of Japan only. It had no interest with speculative greed amongst it customers, especially for property.

The secret nature of Japanese banking did not help. Similar to to the Northern Rock occurring it was in denial for four years. The Yen carry trade with 0.5% interest rates helped Hedge funds to inadvertently take craziness to a new level.

Comparing the two markets of UK and Japan even on IR’s and property reactions is impossible unless you study all the factors.

Re topic - I have mentioned not wanting mud slinging it is degenerative. But I was so incensed with your actions. Your last post says a lot - should you not desist I will have to report the situation for consideration with the mods.

You only posted the Japanese thread on this site, as you know I have a large property portfolio in this market. I know it's one of your wind ups - be honest, look at your opening pitch. You also only know from my other posts about having development land in North Milan, by Lake Como. So I would expect a comparison of the quack Italian state and subprime, coming on to the NI thread soon. In future I desist from posting any commercial interests, as it will be shovelled up somehow. But I would prefer rationale debate only. Please, keep it this way...??

Thanx so much for your insight Profit, maybe at the moment there is to much red mist with me so it’s advisable not to post further. Watch Channel +1 now, Dispatches on about the city muppets.
prophet-profit
BB - I wish I could cut this one dead in the tracks, but surely you must see how some of your comments are inflamatory.

I respect both you and md and I have to say that there appear to be a lot more posters here these days because of the likes of md - this is not a closed door teddy-bears picnic anymore ( wink.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif) and there does not seem to be too many bulls here just 'neithers', 'mild bears' , moderate bears, medium bears and 'mutha' bears!!!

edit - I see md's here now (after I had posted) so I will retire to the background and let you's two sort it out.

PS If anyones interested I am offering 4/6 on ? and 11/10 on ? wink.gif
subby
ok point taken....behave you 2 tongue.gif
pod
QUOTE (subby @ Feb 18 2008, 11:01 PM) *
ok point taken....behave you 2 tongue.gif


Oh behave
Belfast Boy
QUOTE (subby @ Feb 18 2008, 09:01 PM) *
ok point taken....behave you 2 tongue.gif

...awww, you guys spoil all my fun sad.gif tongue.gif smile.gif
Vespasian
Feisty tonight, peeps!

Just my tuppence worth - I'm not sure the Japanese bubble collapse will mirror our own BB and Tokyo house prices are pretty irrelevant to here, MD unless we are comparing to a similiar city like London

A nice unbiased response - see me, I've changed! wink.gif
Belfast Boy
QUOTE (md23040 @ Feb 18 2008, 08:52 PM) *
You only posted the Japanese thread on this site, as you know I have a large property portfolio in this market. I know it's one of your wind ups - be honest, look at your opening pitch. You also only know from my other posts about having development land in North Milan, by Lake Como. So I would expect a comparison of the quack Italian state and subprime, coming on to the NI thread soon. In future I desist from posting any commercial interests, as it will be shovelled up somehow. But I would prefer rationale debate only. Please, keep it this way...??

No m8 that is incorrect. My only interest is in what effect interest rates will have here and I like to reference the Japan property bubble.

Have a look through my previous posts. You will see that I was discussing Japan here - long before you appeared from under your bridge <joking> tongue.gif
prophet-profit
BB - I hope you don't mind me replying to your post here rather than the NI thread; I am doing this for the benefit of other posters and trying to keep the 'noise' to a minimum.

With regard to your comment 'So it is ok for him to reference me then?'

I do think there is a subtle difference in that you referenced his views and posted a link to his viewpoint on a main forum thread, whereas he referenced a thread for you to look at on the main NI Thread (but didn't post your viewpoint / link there). Whether we are just disagreeing on semantics or not is for you to decide, but I thought it was only fair in mds absence to make this distinction.

That's about enough from me where this business is concerned because I am not seeking argument with you; all I am simply trying to do is resolve this situation with further clarity (in addition to the comments I have made so far) with a view to some amicable solution being enabled in the future*

*I have produced a graph to that effect and forecast the greatest possibility of this in Aug. 2018 however, there is a small possibility of this occurring sooner if you two can both just agree on the boundaries of your pi$$ taking
Belfast Boy
QUOTE (prophet-profit @ Feb 19 2008, 11:06 PM) *
That's about enough from me where this business is concerned because I am not seeking argument with you; all I am simply trying to do is resolve this situation with further clarity (in addition to the comments I have made so far) with a view to some amicable solution being enabled in the future*

*I have produced a graph to that effect and forecast the greatest possibility of this in Aug. 2018 however, there is a small possibility of this occurring sooner if you two can both just agree on the boundaries of your pi$$ taking

If he is right about his predictions of a 20% nominal fall in the next 5 years then I will just have to leave this forum. Head held in shame. However, what if I am right about a fall of greater than 50% in real terms in the next 5 years?

Maybe we will both be correct if wage inflation in our public sector takes off. Yeah, if the public sector gets 6-7% pay rises for 5 years that may make us both right. Now what was my pay rise this year? Oh yeah 2.5% mad.gif

So I see one of us leaving in shame. Or both of us still arguing we were right in 5 years tongue.gif
mmca22gr
QUOTE (Belfast Boy @ Feb 20 2008, 12:34 AM) *
If he is right about his predictions of a 20% nominal fall in the next 5 years then I will just have to leave this forum. Head held in shame. However, what if I am right about a fall of greater than 50% in real terms in the next 5 years?

Maybe we will both be correct if wage inflation in our public sector takes off. Yeah, if the public sector gets 6-7% pay rises for 5 years that may make us both right. Now what was my pay rise this year? Oh yeah 2.5% mad.gif

So I see one of us leaving in shame. Or both of us still arguing we were right in 5 years tongue.gif


BB, I think it will be you to leave because if you have a look at post by MD then only his evidence has any weight. Any other evidence produced is clearly not up to scratch.
He is an arrogant ******** artist - all the chat about nominal vs real falls above or below 50% are all irrelevant to someone who is sitting ona depreciating asset in an economic downturn in a part of the UK that has not very much going for it. Do you really think that those people living in Benicia, California (a place the size of Ballymena- where house prices have dropped 54% in a year) really care?
vicmac64
QUOTE (prophet-profit @ Feb 18 2008, 08:40 PM) *
If I may just step in here Subby............

No disrespect to either BB or md, but BB winds up md in equal measure to md's responses.

I don't want to pick fights with anyone here (even if they are seen as 'Banter')

Vicmac and I had a few run-ins in the past and it was to the detriment of the thread and all the other posters here. and I have to say, following my bouts with Vicmac, I have far more respect for him and wish we hadn't deviated down that road.....

Basically, what I am saying is I hope these two posters can reach a happy medium, whilst the rest of us keep out of the 'banter'

Peace , Love and Respect everyone rolleyes.gif

Hey Prophet Profit, you argued your case well. ha ha

Just back from andorra and mallorca - so thats why no arguments on the forum!!! I was away you see!!! ha ha

No seriously I like the new format where we can start new threads and yet continue with the old one.


Lot of respect for yours and everyones contributions - keep up the good work.
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