Did you know that:

- under Moroccan law you will need to pay 10% VAT on the interest rates. For 5% interest rate the total is 5% +10% VAT so you will be paying 0.50% VAT to the Moroccan Government until your mortgage has been paid out. Of course .5% is not too much, but it add up to about 60 Euro/month (i.e. almost £50/month) for a 25 year mortgage.

- the service of the loan is in foreign exchange because under Moroccan law you cannot pay Dirhams. That means exchanging all the rental money in foreighn currency and then back in Dirhams.

- the rent will attract VAT of 10%. Of course this goes against what the property sites were claiming and lying.

- the VAT was increased from 14% to 20%. This is quite a big increase. Combined with the 14% decrease of £/Euro, the price for British people has increased by 20% without any real value appreciation

The new finance ministed decided this recently. Is he trying to sabotage the Plan Azure 2010? Or the Plan Azure 2010 stuff was just a magnet to trap some foreign investors?

True, a better place for exotic destinations property investment is Dubai I think.

Have you knowledge on Brasil?

I have some knowledge on Brazil. What do you want to know?

I saw the counrty is developing rapidly and it's high investment potential there. Am wondering if the place offers the stability many consultants claim. I am not looking for off-plan properties there as I find them rather expensive and I can't trust the rental returns they offer. I have very little trust in off-plans anywhere in the world, I may be wrong, but it's the way I feel from some experiences.
Am wondering if you have any knowledge on the fiscality in Brasil, for example what happens when you resell, also what is the real rental return you can expect.
And last but not least, outside Rio the infractionality is just as high or is it mostly a scarecrow for the foreign eyes.

As an investor in Morocco you need to know how to buy and how to invest in property in any country, and the main thing in property market is to make the comparaison yourself not to trust the off plan marketing or a kind advertising like i can smell here
I have some questions to ask.
Why all the spanish, French, Brits, peopele even from Dubai...are investing in Morocco?
Because they know what you don't know about property business opportunities in Morocco.
In any property investment you have to pay tax...
Foreign buyers can buy property in Morocco with less then £30 000 and can resell it with £60 000.
I am not advertising off plan investment at all. I advice people to buy land for development in Morocco. Buy other property not off plan...and wait...you will see many buyers will come to you asking if you want to sell your land or your property with a very good price.
Do not forget that the king of Morocco is removing all the obstacles for investors in Morocco.
Off plan investment is not all property investment...make good research yourself.

There is no proof yet whether the investment in Morocco is good or not. Few foreign people have sold for a profit, except the ones who had inside information.

The important things is that the Morocco government has changed many of the rules which attracted investors in the first place i.e. no tax for rent, 14% VAT, etc. Who knows waht comes next.

A civilised country does not lure investors only to hit them from behind when they do not pay attnetion.

Lejardindefleur I am told will absorb the sales Tax rise.

HOT PRESS "Governments move goal posts"!!!!! Really, they dont do they, who would have believed it. I thought only Gordon Brown manipualted stealth Taxes


Catara, if we simply dwell on the downsides, we get no where.

Saidia Morocco and some of the other Plan Azure and other high end resorts such as Emarr's Tinja will will become highly sought after by well healed tourists. Saidia afterall will have the largest most modern leisure marina in the Med.

BRAZIL - I looked at Brazil but decided it was years behind Morocco in terms of tourism, more than double the flight time and not centrally planned (unlike Morocco). None of the developments really distinguished itself from the others as a must have commodity unlike the Plan Azure Moroccan developments.

DUBAI - a lesson in over supply, long flights, too hot in summer.

Again, we do not know what the future holds.

Some things that we know are the increase of taxes. Besides, we also knmow that prices in Saidia for 2 bedroom apts. are stationary in the last 18 months. This means somebody who bought 18 months ago lost about 6% which could have been acquired by simply leaving the money in the bank.

It is also true that Saidia looks like a nice place from the pictures I saw.

Catara there is a great photo of the golf courses on Totaly Property - Morocco section - Saidia.

Capital growth I think is non existent as you say. I was very happy to get in early and secure the golf villa I wanted at the lowest price, and note those properties have now all sold out.
6% on the 20% I outlayed would amount to lost interest of a negligible sum.

Still a unique huge playground and in time will be very succesfull. It's the uniqueness and lack of competition that will drive the rentals. Capital growth will come once the place opens fully.

Catara you watch how all the people will suddenly 'discover' Morocco in 2010, thinking they are getting in early! At the moment the majority are robotised and conditioned into the odd view that Bulgaria and Dubai are the places to be.

To be honest with you, I would be inclined to buy for myself in Aethenia Resort (part os Saidia) or Atlas Golf. But I am kind of wondering why should I bother when I can go to Spain for £300-£400 including airfare for 4 persons and villa rental... I shall never be able to travel to Morocco for less than £100/person roundtrip...

catara. I don't know where you live, but even flying from rip off Britain you can get a return to Marrakesh for under £100. Its quite a bit cheaper for those flying from budget airline hubs in Europe. (Appreciate you would want to fly direct when with family.)

I live in Liverpool and Ryanair/Easyjet do not yet fly to Marrakesh from here. They fly instead to about 16 Spanish destination...

Hi all, its been so long since this overseas forum had a bit of life that I forgot my password.

Dogbox, I think that a lot of investors may have achieved capital growth somewhere else in the world (or somewhere else in Morocco) in the past 18-24 months so its not just about lost interest on your 20%. By the way, have you still not paid the next 20%!?

I agree that Saidia is still "undiscovered" to most people, especially from the point of view of a holiday home buyer. But I feel that the "undiscovered" properties were always being sold at "discovered" prices and once the resort is discovered, the prices will still be where they are now. Only my opinion.

Separately, is it true that the Barcelo hotel are selling off their rooms? If so and if the price is sensible, that could be the best investment at Saidia.

Sean, see the other thread I've just updated with a comparison.

A Polaris World rep said this to me "it's a trade off between golf and facilities or beach, you cant have both unless your a millionaire"

Saidia provides the missing link then. No trade off for end users, they get masses of facilities and beach and world class marina. Saidia cannot fail to be a resounding sucess given the experiences that can be had all in one site without the need for golfers kids and spouses to travel off site to beaches etc.

A similar PW villa second line golf 15 minutes drive from a beach is £446000 absolute minimum, thats more thyan double Saidia similar villas cost, yet if anything the rents will be higher from Saidia given all the facilities for a broad range of people (not just golfers and gym users).

When all you foreign property speculators finally grow up you will suddenly realise that all assets, particulary overseas, are just liabilities. Meanwhile enjoy the dream.

Overseas property can be a liability, I think many of us appreciate this, so as with all commerical endeavours it comes down to careful asset selection. Cash alone will never add particularly to your wealth.

Dogbox, when you say things like "Saidia cannot fail to be a resounding sucess.." you lose a bit of credibility.
I could give you a list of things that may lead to such failure but you'd just respond with a longer list made up of the same old stuff so I can't be bothered.

The fact that dogbox has to bang on about Saidia on every Moroccan thread shows to me that he is trying to convince himself as well as everyone else that his investment in Saidia is the best in Morocco. He has a plaster for every sore and when this fails he resorts to pseudo philosophical ramblings. I am not saying Saidia is going to fail, I am saying dogbox is living in his own little world.

I am not a seeker of credibility, I merely enjoy discussing Moroccan property, particularly Saidia.

I am also not a fence sitter that seeks to cover all bases so as to avoid egg on face.

As you say you do not wish to be bothered with producing a list of reasons for failure, but I have considered the following negatives;


Terrorism - home grown, Algerian perhaps with Al Queda involvement

Extremists getting into power

Developer failure / Bankcruptcy

Property over - supply on the development

Increased / unforseen costs such as management cost increases

Rising sea levels

Worldwide property slump

Poor quality property delivered

Low tourist numbers wanting to use the development, leading to low yields

Water resource issues

My villa being set quite far back from the beach and marina

A glut of touristic property for rent throughout the Med and Portugal plus Egypt


So my choice is, stick with more familiar investments, say another commercial property in the UK, or perhaps a French or Portugese property, or add some spice to the mix.
I am not a natural risk taker by any stretch.

I could have waited until after the development was at or near completion, but the reason I chose not to was that I felt I would have limited options at that point. The golf villas have shown as sold out for the last few weeks, could be a developer ruse but I dont think so.


You state the prices did not represent good value. This forum is no doubt used by people agonising over Saidia value comparisons so it would be usefull for anyone to give specific comparisons with say Spain. I gave the example of Polaris World charging more than double for a very similar villa with no beach, no marina and so on.
The argument generally put forward is 'Morocco is not Spain'. I can see why people would therefore automatically assume Moroccan property 'should' be cheaper.

Dogbox, good list and respect for doing it. I wish I had your time!

In your list you highlighted something which was a biggy for me - the golf villas are a long way from the beach and the commercial centre. It is certainly not walkable with small kids. People tend to be lazy on holiday so it will be crucial that the facilities within the VVT8 common area are good enough.

A few more for your list might be:

Will the airlines provide the flights and at what price?

Will the commercial areas be successful and attract the right type of shop?

It is unlikely to become a place where people will live and is financially out of reach of the locals so who will the buyers be in the secondary market?
Will such buyers prefer new off-plan opportunities?

Transport shouldn't be a problem. There is to be a bus stop outside the main clubhouse on VVT8 and a taxi drop off zone.

These buyers might be the same that are buying resales in the Polaris World Murcia's resort. I.e. nobody...

Sean;

Airlines; I think once Oujda redevelopment is complete with 25 hubs, the low cost carriers will come. I think they expect about 30,000 guests per week into Saidia which should be enough to sustain some airlines although Im not sure what the coverage will be like off season. Presumably less flights.
I it is concievable that the King after having made all this effort with the development, the airport, the new road and losts of development into Saidia tow itself, will then pull out all the stops to ensure low cost carrier prescence even if it means intital sweeteners.

Resales; Even though Im not considering resales myself I would like to comment on this. I can imagine people living there what with so many facilities and the health centre all in the one wonder - land.
Indeed, my freind has purchased a golf villa and is planning to live there for much of the year - she is retired.

I also expect French and Spannish retirees to live here given all thr shops, health facilities and so on.

Residents I think will prefer the more peaceful located property - I would if I were living there, and to be away from the noise and high numbers of prying eyes.


Id like to be closer to the beach but this would have meant spending more - so I think Ive got the balance about right for me.
There will be a bus stop right outside the entrance to the golf village and I suspect biycles might be made available.

Rents per m2 should be higher on the properties close to the beach, but those who will want to spend a little less on thier holiday will Im sure see the distance compromise as worthwhile.

We reserved a beach villa (vvt6) after discounting the golf villas (vvt8) as they do look very plain compared to the beach villa design in our view and too far from the beach. If you have to wait for a bus its now worth it as I would view this as too much of an inconvenience on my holidays, we did a viewing trip and the development is massive so if you are not in the centre its a long walk.

In the end we didn't go through with it and I still believe we made the right choice. We were looking for holiday home (not investment) I think this is the kind of place that you would go on holidays once or twice max (probably stay in 5* hotel as part of package) and the novelty would wear off. Sadia feels too isolated, its big and doesn't really have a soul. We also believed re-sale would be a problem if we tired of it which we felt we would as a family holiday destination. In comparison we bought a 4 bed villa in France on a golf course in Bezier a couple of years back really as an investment as its rented out 6 months a year, its 15 mins drive to beach. We have gone nearly every year as there is so much to do and see in the surrounding areas...which is then worth the 15min drive to beach. Airlines fly all year round to France, I think Oujda flights will be scarce off-season if non-existent and renting will have lots of competition from hotels/packages which will be cheap and aimed at golfers. We are off to Tunisia in Feb - half board in 5* hotel for £230 pp incl flights and transport.

We are now looking in spain/france/portugal as alternative for our holiday home as prices are coming down and talking to agents you can get 20% off prices compared to last year, we may even hold off until 2009 to buy as that was when our VVT6 villa would have been ready anyhow.

I agree, I don't think many people will retire to Saidia, its too isolated.

On the other hand if you were in the Tangier area and you wanted to get out of your resort then here are some examples of things to do.


Tangier Kasbah
The Kasbah, which is the highest point in the city, is located within the medina but isolated by its walls. The gate opens onto a marble courtyard that leads to the Dar el-Makhzem, which was the former Sultan’s palace, built in the 17th century with carved wood ceiling. Today it is the Kasbah Museums, which includes the Museum of Moroccan Art and the Museum of Antiquities, and an archaeological collection with exhibits primarily from Volubilis. Don’t forget to visit the Sultan’s gardens, as well.



Medina of Tangier
As any Moroccan town, the medina (old quarters) is almost a mandatory visit if you are interested in feeling "the life" of the city and being close to the locals (and other tourists too, for better or for worse). Perhaps not very "traditional", with much less of the "medieval" environment of other historical cities of Morocco, some of their buildings reminiscent of South Spain, others with a colonial look. Nevertheless, probably very exotic to the eyes of someone who has never been to non-western town before.

Visit the Museum of Moroccan Arts (Kasbah Museum)

Visit Hercules Cave

Visit Tangier Beach

Visit Tangier American Legion Museum http://www.legation.org/

Visit Terrasse des Paresseux

Visit St Andrew' church

Visiting an original Hamman

TanJAZZ : Tangier's celebration for JAZZ !
Every single year Tangier celebrates Jazz music by hosting a five day long festival with a heavy schedule of pure delectation TANJAZZ!
http://www.tanjazz.com/

Visit the beautiful coastal town of Asilah, it has an international arts festival every year.

Visit the new marina when built in the bay of Tangier

Visit Port Lixus



I can see cabin fever setting in for those who retire to Saidia, especially if your villa is a bus ride away from the beach.

Amo, sounds like you made the right choice for you.

I think it's horses for courses. If you take the many isolated developments in the Bahamas for example, there is'nt much to do other than beach realted activities and relaxation, however that certainly does'nt diminish thier value, where $1m price tags for 2 bed houses is typical. Step outside the gated developments and the prices drop dramatically.

We have never found anywhere we do not tire of fairly quickly. Saidia at least has lots and lots of sports facilities, spas, you can sit and watch the marina for hours, fish, boat trips, trips to Saidia town which I think will get better, trips to surrounding countryside (not boring to me as I love all nature) and so on where as other developments we looked at had far fewer onsite activities so we felt we definitely would tire of them particularly where you had a 15 minute+ drive to beach.

Sure one can visit local towns or look round a vineyard in France or Spain but that soon dulls for us. We prefer to do sports in the morning, run along the beach, swim etc and then just kick back with a good book in the afternoon and then usually cook ourselves on the BBQ (discovered the delights of Rabit meat last year) and have midnight swims and a few beers. I hear there is whale watching off the coast.
I also understand there are trips to the Rif mountains and camping in semi desert - right up my street!


Jesus, honestly I think Tangier will offer much for the investor and become an important business hub.

Last year about this time I was talking with a French buddy who told me Morocco USED to be a good investment destination for medium/small investors. He actually bought a cozy mansion in Casablanca, central area and paid very little for it at that time (that was about 4 years ago)
He intended to sell it due to financial difficulties in France (kids had to be put in good schools)
Why can't you people see a very simple thing: when the fever of purchasing is already there it means the place is already second best for investment! It's one thing to buy a property for very little sums and resell it double or triple price (or even more) and quite another to go for off-plan (someone already bought the land cheaply, made a development on it and resells it to you with capital growth already in it) or already expensive properties.
Sorry folks, but I think the time to make insane money in Morocco is gone

Again horses for courses. I live about 35 miles from central London but almost never go there. Much rather chill at home in garden with my children, build a fire, grow veg, go for a run and just be at ease without the yearn to 'see stuff'.

Stuff is all fairly meaningless stimulus to the 100 million proteins in each brain cell which themselves are essentially just a collection of elements such as Hydrogen and Carbon.
Hominoidea has been around 7m years which is less than 0.000001% of Earth time (and visible culture represents just a fraction of this) so the relevance of a theatrical performance or pouring over the output of a self obsessed 'look at me I'm soooo relevant' artist is just a pointless activity.

Saidia offers more than enough for those opf us that just like to be.

You have my respect Dogbox.

Dogbox

Your London argument goes against everything you keep banging on about in Saidia. If your argument is correct they no one will give a $hit about the amenities on the Saidia Development, they will just stay around the villa and throw a bbq.

These things do matter, that's why you go to great lengths describing what Saidia has to offer, a lot of which will be a ride away from your villa.

quote
Hominoidea has been around 7m years which is less than 0.000001% of Earth time (and visible culture represents just a fraction of this) so the relevance of a theatrical performance or pouring over the output of a self obsessed 'look at me I'm soooo relevant' artist is just a pointless activity.
/quote

The above wouldn't even get you a third from Telford university.

Relationships and our surrounding mean everything.

If you have no interest in culture and heritage then this says a lot.

I for one think that the Culture and history of Morocco is one of the most important aspects of the investment(along with price obviously lol)

I am amazed you can discount the historic legacy in Morocco, or is it just an argument that suits your purchase in Saidia?

quote
Hominoidea has been around 7m years which is less than 0.000001% of Earth time (and visible culture represents just a fraction of this) so the relevance of a theatrical performance or pouring over the output of a self obsessed 'look at me I'm soooo relevant' artist is just a pointless activity.
/quote

The above wouldn't even get you a third from Telford university.



Come on Jesus, intellectual snobbery has no place on an Overseas Investments forum!

Well that may be your opinion.

Anyway, Doxbox started it.

Don't tell anyone I said it euroscooby or you will get me into trouble.

As Jermain Grear said, in terms 'our real heritage is the organisms we stem from, not the desperate attempts of meglamaniancs to leave a reminder of thier existence upon the planet'. I would include most artists in this category in that they have an unhealthy obsession with thier own outputs and desperate lust for attention although many very convincingly conceal this behind layers.

Why do you assume the indiginous people in the North East have no culture?

I enjoy a bit of culture now and again, for example I'm very interested in and experimenting with Moroccan cuisine.


I'm minded of conversations with people that have visited the Pyramids whilst on a beach holiday in Egypt. The general sentiment was, 'I'm glad I've done it, but never again'. They site the crowds, the dust, the herding. Many come away from these supposed cultural nourishments feeling they only glimpsed a touristic hollow version of culture.

I really enjoy reading history, indeed I'm currently reading Bill Brysons 'A Short History Of Almost Everything', but the reality of actualy visiting cultural sites / events is'nt particularly enriching. Indeed I find you can come accross real culture in all sorts of ways other than organised obvious spectacles.


I think culture is personal. Ray Mears would find it by spending a bit of time with desert peoples. Others seem to want the obvious output of the typical tourist trail.


Saidia by the way will have a large area set aside for craftsmen, indeed the Government are to subsidise thier rents to encourage them onto the site.

Will Saidia be a little bit clinical? Probably.

No worries, Euro, Jesus is probably right, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box as revealed by my grammer and language.


Those that decided against Saidia often cite the apparant isolation and lack of obvious culture. For me the investment case is not particularly undermined and lets be honest, the Brits I've seen all accross the Med on beach based holls, do not in the main seem to have much motivation to stumble outside thier hotel complex, let alone consume a plate of sun dried tomatoes whilst touring an old building.

Tangiers is'nt for me, Saidia is'nt for them, but to imply Saidia will suffer as a result of being far from obvious well trodden cultural hubs in any meaningful way is pure fantasy.

It's been a while since I've posted on any of these forums!! I too forgot my password!! Nice to see some discussions on Morocco taking place again - I thoroughly enjoy reading them!

It's been 18 months since I went on my first trip to Saidia and secured my apartment on RT7. I do sometimes get the odd niggling feeling as to whether I have done the right thing, as I am not an investor by any shape or form....but my doubts quickly fade when I remind myself we are a family with two young children and Saidia ticks our boxes for the next 8 - 10 years at least.

I sometimes think posters on these forums forget that not everyone is an investor and looking for the same thing from their overseas purchases. We are looking for our own place in the sun, somewhere our friends can visit........... and a bit of rental income thrown in as well would be a bonus!

Dogbox is correct when he talks about history and culture - yes when my kiddies are older myself and my husband will go sightseeing and soak up culture..........but can you imagine 2 chidren under 5 wanting history and culture??!! If my kiddies are happy and content and being entertained by the facilities Saidia has to offer.......fantastic.......then Im happy because it means peace and quiet for me!!! Ok Saidia isn't for everyone..........but my vision is relaxation, everything within 15 minutes, nice resturants to eat at in the evening, entertainment for my children, shopping, golfing, beaches, pools............the list is endless!

Give me bustling markets, cities full of culture........everything a country has to offer...........but hold off until I don't need a bag of baby wipes and an endless supply of jelly babies!!!

There is no problem with Saidia.

The initial question was:
- do you like the extra 6% VAT?
- do you like the 10% tax on rents?
- do you like the elimination of the CGT relief?

In the case of Saidia, do you like the fact that the prices have not increased at all in the last 18 months?

Yes, this is probably the key point.

Take my family holiday this year for example; We always stay in a villa but have noticed our children now 5 and 7 and ourselves were a little bored last time in a typical villa with few leisure facilities. So, began our search for a facility laden development with a beach and warm sea (not the Atlantic), but not a down market, British breakfast Benidorm place.

So far we have found nothing.
We thought we had struck lucky with Calcan in Turkey yet the villa at £1400 per week has no grass for the children, just stony ruble. If you want a modern funky villa with a garden and grass the price is higher., and this with no leisure facilities to get excited about.

We looked at Spain but any villa within price range with plenty of onsite leisure facilities does not have a beach - we have to drive at least 20 minutes.
The Polaris world developments are all a good 20 mintues from beach and have nothing like the choice of onsite leisure facilities. The villas within sensible price ranges often have a bare plantless garden, all a bit bleak and uninspiring.

Imagine the end user comparing PW with Saidia in 2011, Saidia has so much more to offer in terms of an all encompasing entity, not to mention its own large sandy beach and 500 shop shopping centre. Yet a comparible villa in PW s main sports development is more than twice the aquisition cost.


This is why we cant wait for Saidia. Endless leisure facilities and a large beach and marina. This opens up new dimensions over and above a typical villa holiday. For example instead of just haveing a villa , beach and some shops we will now have swimming lagoons, many sports facilities, bowling, cinemas, open air amphitheatres, the marina onsite to sit and wathc boats go by and so on, and this all in one convieninet site.

Its this end user experience that attracts me and which I think will underpin the investment.

Interesting to note, because it's never talked about is the proposed development to the west of Saidia - 'Mar Chica'.
To quote....
"The plan for improvement of the lagoon of Marchica, on the northern-eastern coast of Morocco, in the province of Nador , has been officially launched. According to local daily Le Matin, the one billion euro plan includes setting up seven tourist structures on a 25 km long strip of coast of the lagoon.
On a surface of over 1,000 hectares, the project envisages the modernisation of Nador 's seafront, by restructuring the Hotel Rif, building of the resort Gulf of Nador on the lagoon coasts, by building new hotels, villas, the sea pole Atalayoune, the luxurious residential complex 'Cite' de la Plaine', the new seaside resort Kariat Armane and a hotel complex with sport infrastructures. The construction of a small port 'of the two seas' is also envisaged. The project includes a system for introducing water back into the lagoon."

Anyone who's been to Saidia is aware of the relative proximity of Nador to Med Saidia, if not then maybe Google earth it. Around 30 miles?

What do you readers feel will be the impact on Med Saidia, or this area of Northern Morocco generally?

My personal 2p is that it is ( from my biased perspective as a Saidia investor) a good thing, as it will bring more wealth and tourism into the area. I think the area can benefit from another high end development. I know some of you relish the remoteness of Saidia but to me it's not a great plus. Some of you might also see it as competition?
Remember Marbella was once considered remote! Will this part of Northern Morocco become just another Med coast strip in time?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link to Mar Chica info or not but here goes.....
www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=497899

I apologize if this isn't allowed.

Steve, I've not heard of Mar Chica before, so thanks for the info.