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House Price Crash forum > Investment > Gold and other precious metals
beefheart
I Now have a bullion valut account.

Can anyone tell me if this is a safe organizaton?
How else can i buy gold safely?
(i wont get my bum felt)

Fortune
Depends what you mean by 'safe'. Read the help guidelines on the website - especially in regards to where your gold is stored (which vault) and how to redeem your gold on demand. Personally, the only true failure of their system I could envisage would involve an aggressive first-world country smashing the door down to the vaults to grab your yellow shiny stuff (take your pick which one...haha) which is possible, perhaps quite possible, but unlikely. Its as safe as electronic commerce can get (just like your high street bank - do you trust them as well?). Don't forget the power-at-be are probably using bullion vault as well laugh.gif
Selling up
Is there really any safer way to store wealth?

The only thing that intuitively looks safer is to hold gold in your hand - but then you still have to store it somewhere.

Whether that's in your garden or in a bank vault, it brings the risk of theft, and of the insurers finding an excuse not to pay out. IE the same risks as BullionVault
Goldfinger
It is difficult to cut all intermediaries out of your finances. BV holds gold as a custodian for you, at the same time this gold is in a recognized and insured vault. So, it's safe. Now, in the IMO very unlikely case government would confiscate gold (Why should they? They can just print the money to buy it, i.e. 'monetize' it.), they could as well not let you take it out of your bank safe or take it from you on leaving the country.

Nothing is 100% secure. I trust BV and Goldmoney, and I have money in both, using the different vaults they offer. I have also physical gold stored in various places where I have personal access to.

If there were severe market interruptions (gold market closed, banks not functioning), you could not sell your BV or Goldmoney gold and tranfer funds onto your accounts. BUT you would have the very reassuring knowledge that your assets are stored somewhere safe and they will not just disappear like any other 'financial' paper (including currency) could in such a meltdown.

If you're rich, get a personal safe in London and Zurich, and possibly a few more places around the globe.
bobthe~
QUOTE (beefheart @ Nov 3 2007, 10:13 AM) *
I Now have a bullion valut account.

Can anyone tell me if this is a safe organizaton?
How else can i buy gold safely?
(i wont get my bum felt)

Hi beefy.
I mentioned this on another thread, but worth mentioning again. When you come to buy, it is worth logging on and then going to the Markets page.
There you get chunks of gold with an offer price that other people are selling. That is usually the best price going, so click to buy that.

If you don't fo that and click to buy a large amount from your account, you will get the cheap gold, but there is always some expensive stuff lurking around behind it and you would end up buying some of that, which is not a good deal.

So if you sit and watch the screen and grab the cheaper chunks, that is the way to get the best price.

Have a couple of practices with the free bit they give you before you do it for real.

In my case, when I was buying, the price was around £12230 per kg (I know, I am a johnny come lately as well). The expensive stuff was 12500, which I know is not a great deal, but you might as well keep the money for yourself. ohmy.gif)

Hope that makes sense...
Fortune
Some more info from the Bullion Vault website:

RIGHT TO WITHDRAW

QUOTE
You have a right of withdrawal of your gold from BullionVault, but you acknowledge BullionVault is not designed primarily as a service for those who wish to take physical possession of bullion.

Your wish to withdraw bullion will be accommodated only in the form of whole numbers of appropriate bars of varying sizes and, of generally accepted bullion coins, to be selected at BullionVault's discretion.

The withdrawal fee for good delivery bars will be not more than 2.5% of value.

The withdrawal fee for other gold will be not more than 7.5% of value.

To make physical withdrawals you will be required to provide reliable forms of identification and may in addition be required to indemnify BullionVault against identity fraud through the purchase of appropriate insurance.

Your understand that you cannot claim withdrawal directly from ViaMat. Your right to withdrawal is to be effected through BullionVault who have the means and responsibility for identifying you reliably. Depending upon the quantity withdrawn you may be required to identify a local bank or equivalent institution to which your gold can be delivered.

Upon withdrawing bullion you accept that you may lose anonymity where these transactions are monitored by appropriate authorities.

Upon withdrawing bullion you accept that you may become liable to taxes which you would otherwise not become liable to, and you permit BullionVault to deduct those taxes appropriately.


BULLION VAULT RISKS

QUOTE
Risks which are not a BullionVault responsibility:

Gold price movements — You are exposed to the risk of potential loss arising from a falling gold price during the time in which you own gold. This risk is not a BullionVault responsibility.

Money politics — Governments and other agencies seeking currency stability, or for other reasons, might seek to constrain or tax the ownership of gold to the disadvantage of its owners. BullionVault provides for multiple locations from which you may choose one or more. The actuality or fear of government action might affect the value of gold stored in a given location. This risk is not a BullionVault responsibility.

Bank insolvency - Your cash balances at BullionVault are deposited in segregated accounts at a highly rated bank, but your money's safety is dependent on bank integrity. All banks are subject to possible failure. Depending on a number of factors in the event of bank failure you might be entitled to receive compensation from appropriate authorities, but the terms of such compensation are complex and the timescale for receiving compensation might be long. This risk is not a BullionVault responsibility. [Note that when your money is used to buy gold your exposure to bank insolvency ceases]

Identity theft — If your BullionVault account number and password are compromised you are at risk of unauthorised access to your account. Such access will be alarmed within minutes by SMS messages if both your BullionVault Burglar alarm is enabled and your account is of sufficient size. Any change of your account details would be acknowledged to you. Any withdrawal resulting from use of a compromised password would only be to your linked bank account or - in unusual circumstances - would be in person, in which case it would be validated against your filed identity verification, and subject to indemnity insurance taken out by BullionVault, at the withdrawer's expense, which would compensate you against loss. As a result the most serious risk arising from the theft of a password are (i) loss of privacy and (ii) the entering of mischief orders on BullionVault - which would execute at market prices and thereby potentially switch you between gold and money - or vice versa - at prevailing values but not according to your wishes. An attempt to bleed your account of value in favour of another account would be reversed whenever advised in reasonable time, and would of course lead to detection and prosecution of any criminal activity without gain. In these ways BullionVault seeks to minimise the risks to you associated with identity theft but these are not a BullionVault responsibility unless the breach of security can be shown to have occurred because of BullionVault's error.

Liquidity risk — BullionVault is available only to its users, so your ability to convert your gold into money depends on there being another user bidding for that gold. It is possible that liquidity could dry up leaving you temporarily unable to realise the apparent value of a bullion holding within BullionVault. This risk is mitigated by affording to all users who can make large bar delivery a right of sale on the local bullion market. In this way all system users - including BullionVault on it own account - are powerfully motivated to bid for under-priced gold in an illiquid markets as the transaction has a high probability of being profitable, and this would eliminate by natural market forces any lack of liquidity. Nevertheless the risks associated with a lack of immediate liquidity are not a BullionVault responsibility.

System availability — BullionVault's computerised machinery, which is accessed by you across the internet, might become inaccessible for periods of time. This could prevent you from executing a transaction which you would otherwise have made. This risk is not a BullionVault responsibility.

Insurance exclusions - As your property your gold is subject to insurance exclusions imposed by insurance underwriters in line with established insurance practice regarding the physical protection of your gold. These excluded risks are presented on the insurance certificate published on the BullionVault site and include events like nuclear war. These risks are not a BullionVault responsibility and are risks you undertake with respect to your gold, except that no exclusion absolves BullionVault in undertaking its correct duties of care in arranging the security of your property to levels considered commercially acceptable.

Force Majeure — The risks described under Force Majeure are not BullionVault responsibilities.


QUOTE
Risks which are a BullionVault responsibility:

BullionVault accepts it has duties of care with regard to aspects of risk to your property and undertakes to manage risks so as to contain them at minimal levels, consistent with best business practices.

Subject to the provisions for Exclusions and Limits of liability in these Terms and Conditions BullionVault accepts liability for failing in this duty.

Physical bullion theft — Your gold could conceivably be stolen from a vault by determined thieves. It is the Vault Operator which accepts a duty to retain sufficient security measures, and to maintain cover against such an eventuality either in terms of its own resources or its insurance policies. BullionVault accepts a duty to regularly monitor the Vault Operator to ensure the maintenance of a limit sufficient to cover at least the value of the gold stored.

Subject to the provisions for Exclusions and Limits of liability in these Terms and Conditions BullionVault accepts liability for failing in this duty.

Theft of Customer money — Money held in the segregated Client accounts could be illegally transmitted through the banking system by a determined thief, or thieves, operating within BullionVault. At any one time the control on initiating outward transfers of money from the Client account rests with two senior individuals at BullionVault who must both approve payments. The responsibility for daily reconciliation rests with a third.

Subject to the provisions for Exclusions and Limits of liability in these Terms and Conditions BullionVault accepts liability for failing in this duty.

BullionVault segregation management — A failure by BullionVault's system to prevent a customer from over-purchasing beyond his cash balance, or over-selling beyond his gold balance would render a segregated account temporarily incapable of meeting its obligations to other customers. All BullionVault software is designed to eliminate this eventuality. Moreover BullionVault checks its accounts daily for such eventualities. The risk of material loss is extremely small, because any such over-trading would be substantially offset by a surplus in the opposite segregated account.

Subject to the provisions for Exclusions and Limits of liability in these Terms and Conditions BullionVault accepts liability for failing in this duty.

BullionVault record keeping — a risk in all business record keeping systems is that internal records may show a position which satisfies the organisation's officers but does not represent the real world, and where the problems only come to light when it is too late. The risk rises with increasing complexity of transactions and the availability of credit, neither of which apply to BullionVault. For all businesses the record keeping risk is statutorily addressed by annual audit. In addition BullionVault controls its record set by voluntarily submitting its daily reconciliations of Customer property to public inspection on the web.

Subject to the provisions for Exclusions and Limits of liability in these Terms and Conditions BullionVault accepts liability for failing in this duty.

BullionVault insolvency — As of March 2007 BullionVault maintains sufficient shareholders' funds to pay for all its planned operations for a period of 4 years, even in the absence of all operating revenue. This makes it an exceptionally strong business in financial terms.

However unforeseen events could conceivably damage that financial strength, rendering BullionVault insolvent.

The insolvency of BullionVault would not affect your property rights with regard to money or gold in a BullionVault account, but it would be likely to create some inconvenience and delay for you in taking hold of that property.

Disastrous data loss — BullionVault's system contains data in electronic form which could conceivably be lost in a widespread and catastrophic machinery failure. BullionVault operates a redundant machinery policy which means that every component of its data storing capability is protected by both local and remote data duplication. The likelihood of a simultaneous loss of all data copies is extremely low. However, in addition to this the system prints out a complete system balance once a week, sends an encrypted copy to remote data vaults, and during each week logs in paper format all transactions, ensuring that data loss is a temporary inconvenience, not a disaster. Moreover you can save the published reconciliation of your property on your own computer, thereby duplicating that part of the records which relates to your own property.
narco
I like the idea of goldmoney and bullionvault but physical gold in the hand is the way i want it. If gold is for emergency situations, I want it as close as possible.

Compounded
Gold confiscation was a one off IMHO caused by the US need to devalue and many many tons of gold being in circulation as gold coin.

The amount of gold now held as investment is much smaller than that held as jewellry.

The idea of confiscation of jewellry is IMO absurd.
azazel
Goldfinger,

I knew that I ought to invest the money from the sale of my house in gold at end of July when it was about £10,500 a kg. Had I done this then I would be about £80,000 up now rather than about £4,000 from the bank. Dooh!

What is the safest way of investing £300,000 in gold? Does GoldFinger or anyone else knowledgeable about gold think that it is still worth investing the money in gold? Or is it too late now?

I sold my house and rented in the belief that the house prices would drop and it seems I made a good decision as they definately are. Thanks to HPC.co.uk and all the contributers, thanks guys! I trying to buy a bigger house and garden for my four kids to grow up in.

Thanks Azazel
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