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Full Version: B B C Money Box Live Monday 24.09.07 H P Debate
House Price Crash forum > About housepricecrash.co.uk > housepricecrash.co.uk in the media
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Financial Planner
on the panel. Yes, there will finally be a bear on Money Box. Its only taken the first run on a UK bank in 140 years but, well, they get there in the end... laugh.gif

As soon as its advertised on their website, get your emails in guys. They need to hear the strength of feeling BEFORE the event.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/6999374.stm

BBC Radio 4 Money Box Live, around 28 minutes long.
Higher quality (takes time to open): 128Kbps (25MB)

Lower (but still very good) quality: 32Kbps (6.4MB)
crash_bang_wallop
QUOTE(Financial Planner @ Sep 20 2007, 02:59 PM) *
on the panel. Yes, there will finally be a bear on Money Box. Its only taken the first run on a UK bank in 140 years but, well, they get there in the end... laugh.gif

As soon as its advertised on their website, get your emails in guys. They need to hear the strength of feeling BEFORE the event.



Stick a rocket up the **** of that tosser Paul Lewis!
Timm
QUOTE(Financial Planner @ Sep 20 2007, 02:59 PM) *
Yes, there will finally be a bear on Money Box.


Well done FP.

I see the FT has your avatar on the front page today, under the word Financial.
For a moment, I thought you had your own paper!

Then I realised the flag was not animated.
Silly me.


dogbox


FP - I've emailed them twice this last week as I'm concerned they keep inviting mortgage spokepeople on that dont have a clue, and in that I include Boulger.

RMEMBER;

Boulger will say "UK lending is more robust than the UK's" - HE'S BEEN SAYING THIS IN THE RECENT MORTGAGE PRESS.

N Rock lend 5.9 x JOINT income which is like 12 x one income and this at 125% (I HAVE THE PRODUCT GRID IF YOU WANT IT FAXED)

At least 10 'reputable' Building Societies have been lending in the self cert and sub prime sectors, some such as Derbyshire (SALT) lend 90% to people made bankcrupt just 1 year ago (my brother for one - he went bankcrupt owing £60k and SALT loaned him 90% £200k without income proof 1 year later).

125% ltv has been available with N Rock for many years and others inc Abbey, M Express (B &B), BM Solutions (HSBOS) and even Covenrty BS are present

The true extent of self cert is well masked by FAST TRACK which is offered by virtualy all lenders from C & G to HBOS. N Rock haved cleaned up here by offering 85% fast track since 2001 whereas the norm is 75%

Sub prime financiers have forced rates up and drastically tightened criteria - THIS MEANS A LARGE CHUNK OF CASH HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MARKET. See on MSE - quite a few people worried thier sub prime variable rate has just jumped to 10.9% and with no excape route as noone else will now lend

Mortgages are not the full story. Second charge loans of which some 60% are subprime / self cert are now very expensive and many such as Lehman Bros are closing operations such as SPML - loans division


Boulger is a rose tinted specialist


bachelor
QUOTE(Financial Planner @ Sep 20 2007, 02:59 PM) *
on the panel. Yes, there will finally be a bear on Money Box. Its only taken the first run on a UK bank in 140 years but, well, they get there in the end... laugh.gif

As soon as its advertised on their website, get your emails in guys. They need to hear the strength of feeling BEFORE the event.


Wow, nice one FP.

I hope it goes well, I'll definitely be listening to this.
grey shark
QUOTE(crash_bang_wallop @ Sep 20 2007, 03:04 PM) *
Stick a rocket up the **** of that tosser Paul Lewis!

And one up Boulger as well .

FP in case you didn't see it a 5 minute clip from channel 4 news re. sub prime very bearish , BOULGER appears on it after 3 minutes just stating the obvious .

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/busi...ke+a+hit/825952
SeenItAllBefore
If you get the chance I think it would be useful to point out that the media forever wheels out sales people from organisations that would never talk down the housing market and labels them “experts” so it is near impossible for the man in the street to hear anything other than good news on the subject.

I'd also like to know why house prices can quadruple without the authorities batting an eyelid but, once the prospect of any sort of price fall looms, they suddenly become committed to maintaining "stability".
Willy Wonka
Where can I watch / Listen to Money Box Live???
bachelor
QUOTE(Willy Wonka @ Sep 21 2007, 09:45 AM) *
Where can I watch / Listen to Money Box Live???


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/
Financial Planner
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/6999374.stm

Get your emails in, guys.
Buffer Bear
Just have.

In a nutshell, said not wise to buy, personal debt levels a problem, low IR are irrelevant, economic fundamentals out of touch with reality, the correction will be worse than 1989-1995, it is different this time, it will be far worse.
Viceroy
I emailded them my story.. back in 2003, depressed from unable to afford to buy a home (ie 3.5 x salary), I keyworded "housepricecrash" into Google and found this site. National debt, lax lending laws and low interest rates have made "saving" a dirty word. Using my unfashionable savings (built up from a STR back in 2001 due to personal not financial reasons) I may be mortgage free in a few yrs, once I decide to buy a home that will be probably 30% less compared to buying it today.
Gavin
FP I would like you to echo the point made earlier.

Why not say you are delighted to be part of the panel because the views given are always by those parties that are desperate to keep the housing boom going.

In the Times yesterday they did a four page pull out on where prices are headed and asked Estate Agents from each region for their comments. Please press that:
  • Estate agent earn fees from sales and earn more fees from higher prices. They would see fees fall and transactions fall in a crash.
  • RICS earn fees from the number of housing transactions and strongly opposed hips because suddenly there would only be the need for one survey per house sale.
  • Mortgage companies (and the CML) earn greater interest on larger loans made on more expensive houses and could face failure (Northern Rock) if prices fell below outstanding mortgages.
  • The government know that presiding over a house price crash on their watch would mean almost certain election defeat.


So its highly unlikely you will get a balanced view from anyone asked in the above catergories. Hence the "we expect prices to level off but we are not expecting a crash", of course they will say that and note they never give an economic reason why not.

The only bears are the serious academic economists and independent publications (Economist, Moneyweek) who almost unanimously say house prices are overvalued and will fall.

State that when people are worried about prices crashing and they hear reassurances to the contrary, then tell them to bare in mind why the re-assurers say 'no crash'.
Sonic the Hedge Fund
QUOTE(Gavin @ Sep 22 2007, 12:49 PM) *
State that when people are worried about prices crashing and they hear reassurances to the contrary, then tell them to bare in mind why the re-assurers say 'no crash'.


FP, why not use that catchy expression 'professional optimist' when talking about VIs?

It sums up the position in two words, the meaning is very obvious, and it is not openly derogatory (which makes it harder to dismiss) It's also catchy enough that some journo's might start repeating it!

Good luck with the debate!
benj
My 2p, FWIW:

I do think it's important to alert people to the vested interests of the "experts". But it's important not to make fallacious ad hominem arguments while doing so:

QUOTE
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: "Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."

There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests. For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not. However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to say this obviously does not make her claim false.


So, when an estate agent claims that house prices are unlikely to crash, simply stating "Well, you are an estate agent, so you would say that" is not a sensible line of argument. Instead, we need to establish why this person believes that prices will not fall, and present facts, analysis and logical arguments that undermine their claims.

Common fallacies of argument that are often levelled at the housing-bear case include:
  • Straw man: The bears' argument can easily be caricatured, to make us look like raving madmen who blow everything out of all proportion. Opponents like to latch on to the most extreme predictions and debunk those, without tackling the real argument which is more moderate.
  • Appeal to authority: Such-and-such a person is cited as a "market expert", and therefore everything they say must be true. Or, the "consensus among analysts" is that prices will not fall. Of course, these experts - vested interests or not - are human and fallible and may be mistaken.
  • Post hoc, or "questionable cause": HIPS is a good example of this. The recent downturn in house prices as reported by Rightmove et al. has widely been blamed on HIPS, with little supporting evidence. Just because A occured before B does not mean that A caused B.
  • Confusion of cause and effect: Similarly, it is commonly argued that there cannot be a house-price crash without a recession, and often that a recession must be the cause, not the effect. This is demonstrably false by counter-example (look at the US right now). Furthermore, economic recession and falling asset prices may both have the same underlying cause - the credit crunch. They will certainly be interrelated events, but it is erroneous and naive to assume that one must be the cause of the other.

One of the arguments the presenter made during FP's Sky News piece the other day I found particularly irritating: "People have been wrong with their predictions of house-price crashes before - why should we believe you now?" Really, such a statement is beneath contempt and I shouldn't have to point out all the flaws in it, but it is essentially an ad hominem attack by association ("look at all those loonies who've been saying this on HPC.co.uk for five years!"). Don't rise to it.

As for non-fallacious arguments - the significance of low rental yields cannot be underplayed. This is the clearest evidence we have that there is no real housing shortage and that house prices are significantly overvalued. And the conditions and triggers for a fall in prices are falling into place right now.

Good luck!
Bearfacts
Good luck FP. I would attack Boulger over 1. His obvious vested interest and 2. His claim that sub prime doesnt exist in the UK. I don't know the stats but I believe about one third of all loans made last year were self cert - if that isnt sub prime I dont know what is. You might like to remind him about the man of 102 years who was able to get a 200K BTL mortgage !

Another useful line of attack might be to question his likely assertion that prices will flatten out ... unlikely I feel because when the investors loose interest due to no capital gains then there will be noone in a position to pay the hideoulsy inflated prices.

If he takes the line that there can't be a correction without a recession then point him to the US.

Anyway best of luck - look forward to listening to the show later.
benj
QUOTE(Bearfacts @ Sep 23 2007, 05:28 PM) *
Another useful line of attack might be to question his likely assertion that prices will flatten out ... unlikely I feel because when the investors loose interest due to no capital gains then there will be noone in a position to pay the hideoulsy inflated prices.


Good point BF, I was about to post another follow-up with exactly that sentiment.

The idea that house prices will stabilize to some kind of "plateau" for the next few years has been widely touted by the VIs. But I don't believe any market in existence has ever behaved like that. The only situation in which the price of some asset or commodity remains roughly static is when said asset or commodity has reached its fair or long-run average price in an unfettered and liquid market. The housing market is highly illiquid, almost by definition - and if anyone thinks that 10-times-average-earnings is the new long-run average price of a house, then they've got another think coming.

Once again, good luck with the show!
Daleroxxu
QUOTE(Bearfacts @ Sep 23 2007, 05:28 PM) *
Good luck FP. I would attack Boulger



go get him !!!!!!

Steve Netwriter
Good luck FP smile.gif

It is different this time
Good luck FP, sort them out!
bachelor
Thought I might post a reminder as it can be missed in the pinned section.

Should be good.

Edit, listen here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/
Spirit

Starting now....

Starcrossed
Good so far.

FP is officially a spokesperson for HPC so we should get quite a bit of new traffic.

He certainly makes sense to me, but I'm biased!
Starcrossed
Excellent, got in the 'no asset class has ever flatlined' argument.
RichC
FP was kickin some butt there with his "no asset class ever flatlined at the top" comment.
OzzMosiz
Usual VI line of "property prices will flatline" - Jonathon pipped in to say this has NEVER happened in any bubble biggrin.gif - nice one!
Spirit

I loved the comment - "if you invest your money in property you might see your money go down the drain" Other panellists could be heard spluttering in the background!


OzzMosiz
hmm interviewer seems to be disagreeing with FP far too often...
Levy process
He's doing well IMO, getting a lot of bearish points in at every turn. I'm amazed the BBC have allowed him on!

Update: I loved the "financially illiterate" phrase. He's getting a lot of snappy sound bites in there!

This is great stuff: Listen if you can!
margesimpson
The use of jargon doesn't really help though - does the average person even know their house is part of an "asset class".
Spirit


On to shared ownership now...

margesimpson
"BTL James" is on now - a hpc wind-up!!!!!!

He's overdoing it a bit with the posh voice.
Spirit

Perfect example of the "financially illiterate" on now...he's agreed with Jonathan that rent wont cover costs and it would be better to put money in building society...but he still wants a BTL mortgage!
WantHousewithLand
Very distracting - I've had a 100% work rate crash!

bachelor
Love that BTL guy, dosen't even know where to find a good rate. laugh.gif

That's, if there is such thing.
Confiteor
Didn't do himself any favours warding off the woman who had a 75% deposit. Shout crash at every opportunity, and you come across as an obsessive.

His position would have seemed more reasonable if he had said someone in her rare position really had little to worry about.
lethal
QUOTE(margesimpson @ Sep 24 2007, 03:21 PM) *
...does the average person even know their house is part of an "asset class".


The 'average person' probably thinks they own the house they live in.
Pilgrim
So who was James-the-BTL-guy with the E.LWisty voice?
WantHousewithLand
I missed the intro, so I wasn't quite sure who was who (apart from FP, of course), but at some point towards the end, someone seemed to admit that BTL only makes economic sense if house prices are going up. Was that the BTL guy?

The_Oldie
QUOTE(Confiteor @ Sep 24 2007, 03:26 PM) *
Didn't do himself any favours warding off the woman who had a 75% deposit. Shout crash at every opportunity, and you come across as an obsessive.

His position would have seemed more reasonable if he had said someone in her rare position really had little to worry about.


Other than losing 30%-40% of her equity over the next four or five years dry.gif.
bachelor

Good job FP well done.

Good points raised, especially about how BTL no longer adds up.
margesimpson
QUOTE(lethal @ Sep 24 2007, 04:28 PM) *
The 'average person' probably thinks they own the house they live in.



Exactly. And calling everyone who disagrees with hpc "financially illiterate" - when many have made money while this site was calling the top time after time - isn't going to win over hearts and minds.
OzzMosiz
QUOTE(Spirit @ Sep 24 2007, 03:25 PM) *
Perfect example of the "financially illiterate" on now...he's agreed with Jonathan that rent wont cover costs and it would be better to put money in building society...but he still wants a BTL mortgage!


Yep, obviously hasn't really a clue.

Show now over. Not a lot new said, FP did good but covered same ground he has before, but I guess that the same scenarios came up, and not a lot you can say in 30 minutes.
margesimpson
QUOTE(Confiteor @ Sep 24 2007, 04:26 PM) *
Didn't do himself any favours warding off the woman who had a 75% deposit. Shout crash at every opportunity, and you come across as an obsessive.

His position would have seemed more reasonable if he had said someone in her rare position really had little to worry about.


Agreed. Condescending in parts and over reliant on pre-prepared sound bites, but overall not a bad performance by FP.
madasafrog
QUOTE(WantHousewithLand @ Sep 24 2007, 03:33 PM) *
I missed the intro, so I wasn't quite sure who was who (apart from FP, of course), but at some point towards the end, someone seemed to admit that BTL only makes economic sense if house prices are going up. Was that the BTL guy?


Hardly a revelation. Thats the whole point of it. Rental yields are nothing. Its the capital growth thats the driving force behind BTL.

People have lost faith in standard pensions. They have seen so many company pensions folding and have seen their private pensions gang raped by brown and his goonies. The rise in BTL is is people trying to provide for their old age as they can no longer rely on state/company or private pensions.


OzzMosiz
QUOTE(The_Oldie @ Sep 24 2007, 03:34 PM) *
Other than losing 30%-40% of her equity over the next four or five years dry.gif.


Possibly, but would still not be in negative equity and would've reduced the mortgage AND had security of not having to move on a whim.

Now someone with 10% deposit - thats different!
The_Oldie
QUOTE(madasafrog @ Sep 24 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Hardly a revelation. Thats the whole point of it. Rental yields are nothing. Its the capital growth thats the driving force behind BTL.

People have lost faith in standard pensions. They have seen so many company pensions folding and have seen their private pensions gang raped by brown and his goonies. The rise in BTL is is people trying to provide for their old age as they can no longer rely on state/company or private pensions.


Having 'raped' pensions and herded people into BTL, what makes you think that Mr Brown will not target the BTL investors next?
Elvis-Has-Sold-The-Building
Well done FP.

One thing, you suggested the guy keep his money in a "Rock solid building society". Maybe need to tweak that phrase smile.gif
bobthe~
QUOTE(The_Oldie @ Sep 24 2007, 03:44 PM) *
Having 'raped' pensions and herded people into BTL, what makes you think that Mr Brown will not target the BTL investors next?

Absolutely. He will have to make up some income when the stamp duty revenue collapses.
They like to target "tax avoidance" in the revenue as any IT Contractor will tell you.smile.gif
madasafrog
QUOTE(The_Oldie @ Sep 24 2007, 03:44 PM) *
Having 'raped' pensions and herded people into BTL, what makes you think that Mr Brown will not target the BTL investors next?


It wouldn't surprise me if he did. The taxation that has rolled in under brown has been nothing short of shocking. I run a small business and i have seen the effects of his "economic leadership" on industry and small employers. The list is long.

If you want to run a small business in the UK, its quite easy. Just buy a big one and wait.

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