Hey

I'm a small BTL landlord in manchester didsbury area. Recently many of the other landlords have started to put up rents and many people can no longer afford / or want to pay them. Talking to many perspective tenents the figures they usually come up with is between 7.5 and 10%.

Originally i thought these were other BTL landlords who were suffering under the recent rate rises and had decided to pass the increases onto there tenent.

WRONG

There is one particular landlord who owns around 200 properties in the area who has decided to raise rents. Then other smaller usually BTL landlords have followed his lead.

As for me I'm putting up the rent by 12% and usually end up accepting around 8%.

What do you plan on doing when your tenants tell you s0d off?

What make you think you can justify raising the rent twice to three time the rate of wage inflation?
Have you improved the quality of the housing?

And???

I assume that when interest rates go down you will lowering your rent in line with them?

So what sort of tenancy agreements do your tenants have?

You can't have a go at a man for maximizing his investment return.

I believe rents are firming up in some areas and that the most liklely cause is twofold.

a) STR'd people like myself want to rent and are not overly price sensitive.

Many young people with solid incomes just aren't interested in buying and are commiting themselves to renting longer term and are willing to keep or procure a decent rental property even at a higher price.


ANDY

I salute your courage, it would make this forum much more balanced and constructive if more BTL landlords were brave enough to post.

Historically, rents have always risen in a stepwise manner, linked to house prices. Why would this change now? I thought we were big into history repeating itself on HPC!

Do you do this annually or is this the first rise in 2+ years?

Well, I suppose if you want to increase the probability of civil unrest while you spend the extra on being fellated in your new car, it's a fairly reasonable thing to do.

Yep - plus BTL numpties will be looking to get more money from the renters to offset interest rate rises. They may or may not be successful in doing so but it's a supply and demand issue. If lots of people are looking to rent and there's en mass upward pressure on rents from landlords then rents will rise.

Another factor people need to consider is what happens when BTLers start exiting the market. That'll mean a lot of people out of their rented property and looking for a new place. More people wanting to rent, less supply of rental properties = higher demand = higher rents.

I'd say all factors point to higher rents in future and turbulence in the rented sector as landlords need to sell their properties.

So who will an exiting BTL landlord sell to in the current climate? That's right, a currently renting FTB. So one rental property exits the market at the same time as a renter exits. No net change in rental supply or demand here.

I agree. Not all landlords are modern day Rachmans as some would have us believe. I feel very sorry for those who tried BTL because they saw how Gordon (with his gold-plated, taxpayer-funded, inflation-linked pension) set about ruining everyone else's pensions. These poor people who, after all, were only trying to provide for themselves in their old age, will be among the first to sell up as they watch their BTL pensions head in the same direction as their work pensions. At least, those nearing retirement will. Younger ones may opt to sit it out. In any event, not all BTLetters are inherently bad people who deserve what's coming. As silver surfer says, more balance would greatly benefit this forum.

Fast forward five years in this scenario... that'll be a big tax bill to pay for people's housing benefit, paid for by people stupid enough to still be working by then.

For my existing tenents I have a rule of not increasing rents during the first year.

At the start of the second year i have a look at what the market price for a similar property will be and usually deduct around 5-3%.

For new tenents I'm letting properties at around 8% higher than what i was getting for previous tenents.

Am i going mad but where are these huge numbers of renters coming from? Most immigrants are now returning to eastern europe in greater numbers than are arrving (Poland/Czech Republic/Slovakia) as they think it is too expnsive in Britain. The population is also getting older which means decling birthrate.

Personally can't make any sense of it myself.

[quote name='Rizo' date='Sep 13 2007, 11:28 AM' post='764543']
Hey

I'm a small BTL landlord in manchester didsbury area. Recently many of the other landlords have started to put up rents and many people can no longer afford / or want to pay them. Talking to many perspective tenents the figures they usually come up with is between 7.5 and 10%.


Surely if this is the case, then the landlords are increasing the likelihood of voids & defaults? If there is no more money to be had out of the tenants how are increases going to enrich them?

Only if the properties remain empty for some reason, which means purchasers would need an incentive not to let them out (or even occupy them). I can't imagine what that incentive would be, in a falling market.

Right, but what sort of tenancy agreement do they have with you?

How often can you raise the rent, under the terms of the contract?

Especially in the North.

We've a proud tradition of digging in and refusing to pay up here in Manchester. It's not so long since Hulme, that squatter's paradise, was festering and chuckling to itself scant miles from the city centre.

As rents go up and prices come down, their will come a point when its cheaper to buy. This will be a natural cap on rents and as prices fall, so will rent.

Also, seeing as a huge number of households are drawing some kind of benefit e.g. housing benefit or working families, council tax etc etc, then i assume you will be expecting your rent hikes to be paid for by the government? Not a chance, the fair rent brigade will be re-founded and your hikes capped.

I hear of a recession around the corner. Where are the jobs going to come from to pay rent increases?.

You havn't thought this through have you.

Rents will rise short term as all the parasitic btl vultures attempt to impoverish even more people in order to make a profit, but it wont last.

Its going to get messy though, alot of btl parasites have committed mortgage fraud.

Many rental properties have multiple occupancies - groups of students or young professionals getting together to rent a place or else people renting a room in the house. Typically three bedrooms means at least three (adult) people. Sometimes four or five if there are couples.

Anyone buying is most likely doing so to to live in the house themselves (at least, until BTL sums make sense again). Unless they are moving in with a family, I doubt that there will be as many people in the house afterwards as before. The overall effect will be more adults looking to rent and less rental properties to choose from.

In any case, it means a lot of churn in the rental property sector as people are turfed out so that the house can be sold. That will create an environment where LLs can get away with asking more.

Before anyone says 'how will people pay' it's far from clear that rents are currently at an unsustainable, maximum level (unlike house prices). I'd say that if supply is restricted enough then people could quite probably be coerced into finding more money in their budgets for rent.

Funny, last year my rent went down (North London) this year (June) it went up by 0.5%...

With the amount of flats to rent in London, I cant see it going up in the near future.

If rents really are shooting up, I must say I've not noticed it around here but there do seem to be a good few anecdotal stories recently, then we are entering a dangerous phase of the bubble.

So far anyone not stupid enough to lie-to-buy in cracksville has been able to take advantage of low rents. If LLs are successful in pushing rents up to cover increased mortgage payments, then a serious amount of spending money going to start coming out of the economy. Add to this tighter personal lending and a consumer lead recession is just around the corner. I personally think a recession will come after house prices have been falling for at least a year, however anecdotes of spiralling rents suggest it could come sooner rather than later.

Non of my tenents draw benifits that I'm aware of. Rents compared to house price's are historically low and there is plenty of room for them to grow.

Why do you think BTL are parasites they are hard working individuals who provide a service.

I call shenanigans - all the evidence I have (admittedly anecdotal) points to rents decreasing because of all the desperate competition between new landlords to rent out their flats. My rent has been reduced and there are a glut of properties for me to choose from should the landlord get any silly ideas about increases. As far as I'm concerned, this is is a renters market at the moment.

I visit Manchester regularly (from there originally) and I would be very surprised if the situation wasn't similar with all the new build apartments I have seen put up. No one should be accepting rent increases lightly at the moment with all of the choice out there.

BTL has helped make house prices unfordable for most. The flats in your portfolio could have been bought by owner occupiers who would then have had the security and peace of mind that goes with it.. people like you have denied this to millions. We are not talking luxury goods like sports cars here, this is the very roof over peoples heads, and their families.

House prices are 8 times income and landlords such as yourself are trying to make a tenant pay the same cost to rent, why? so that you can receive the rent, the ownership of the house (i assume you will be wanting rid of them when you retire on the proceeds of the sale of your houses), and the capital accumulated, thus leaving the tenant with nothing and you with everything yes?. Its disgusting.

Anyway it wont last, negative equity and mortgage defaults will get you.

You sound bitter.

ANDY

I agree with some of what you have been saying. Until recently rents have been stangnating. I Usually rented my 2 bed flats for around 600 a month. I can now rent them within a week for 675 a month.

Again i'm only talking about Didsbury manchester I don't know how other areas of manchester compare.

Hmmm, interesting perspective . . . makes good sense IMO. If people are only viewing rental as something they're doing for a year or two before buying then they'll be more price sensitive, whereas if they're expecting to put in at least 5 years or so in the rental market then they would want to do far more to keep a property. Especially since they can't actually do anything of any significance to their property, if they happen to have something that actually fits their needs and tastes then even if it's a bit over market rent they wouldn't risk losing it.

I'd say the quality of the property management would become way more significant in this situation as well, if you've got a good landlord who's been helpful and efficient and generally nice then you'll suck up a rent rise or two before casting yourself into the unknown. Shit landlords who let their properties rot without fixing things however . . .

Especially if most rentals are several young people (or at least 2 couples) sharing and most purchases are one couple so the overall number of renters vs available property increases with sales.

Maybe my views on it are a bit harsh.
At least you had the guts to come on here and speak. Although this is HPC.co.uk so prepare for some flack.

You are so talking out of your **** it's not even funny.
FTB can buy good three bedroom houses in manchester for around a 1/3 less than what I payed for my flats. So how am I stopping them?

It's idiot like you that really fustrate me you cruse through life thinking everyone owes you!!!

If my tenent has any problems with any of my property I'm a phone call away. How would they feel if they had to pay £150 for a plumber to come round at night?

I actually don't plan on selling anything in my property portfolio ever. I'm 27 now when I'm 50 all the mortgages will be paid and I can live off the rent. When I'm no longer around the property will be passed on to my children. So a short term crash in the market doesn't really effect me.

Assuming you're not a troll, thought you might like to see this (not sure if it applies the same in England & Wales?)

Hey there are similar rules in the UK once a contract has been signed you can't change the rent. You can increase the rent at the end of the tenancy if the tenent wishes to stay on.

No i don't, i work 60 hours a week, sometimes more.

You cruse through life and everybody really dose owe you.

And its none of your business as to whether or not your tenants do draw benefits either.

And it is greedy barstewards like you who really frustrate me.

Any BTL "owner" who does not realise that their actions have helped priceout a generation of people in this country are sad deluded fools and need to get into the real world.

Whats your longest AST?

Personally, I wouldn't sign one for less than 3 years (1 year max with 2 month notice after first year on my side to leave), though I'd push for 5 year.

Its no good blaming the BTL's. We need action to reform the AST now, and re-introduce rent controls to prevent rent inflation.

1 year nobody has ever asked me to increase it. Some people ask for 6 months.

Amen to that!

I'd say that renters are subject to slightly different pressures as well. If you're buying you spend as long looking as necessary, you're not up against a time limit and you're buying something long term. If you're turfed out of your house you've got a couple of months tops to find yourself somewhere. Allow a bit of time for digesting what's happened, some time for ringing round and registering yourself with local agents, some time to pack and a nice safety net of a couple of weeks between getting a property agreed and needing to move out of your old property etc and that's not much time for a house search.

If you're working full time (even more so with a couple or worse a group of friends all needing to search) and local estate agents are unhelpful or owners are unhelpful at letting you see properties then it's not easy to fit in that many viewings. Plus it's pretty well a given that the particulars an estate agent prepares for just a letting are going to be flimsy at best so you don't even have much scope for trimming down the list of what you want to see. And whatever the price chances are most of what you see you're going to dislike anyway, on that kind of timescale people aren't going to stick it to landlords and shop around for the best bargains, if they see something they actually like and know that there's a good chance that if they let it go they'll end up somewhere much less nice for a year they're going to take it even if they feel it's not the best bargain, after all it's only for a year and they can change their minds if they want.

You mean you will live off the tenants... Not a parasite at all are you.

Parasite. noun [C]
1, an animal or plant that lives on or in another animal or plant of a different type and feeds from it:

2, DISAPPROVING a person who is useless and lives by other people's work:
Financial speculators are parasites upon the national economy.

A lot of people on the site don't seem to really get this whole concept . . . so it'll require some subsidies right now, there may be void periods, awkward tenants, current yields may be a bit sloppy, if you're willing to follow the market every day and shift around with a balanced portfolio and great timing you could do a lot better but still . . . if you invest now for retirement in 40 years time and leaving to children in 70 years time it's hard to imagine that one wouldn't do better with property than with anything else.

I'm sure that's just because I've been indoctrinated though.

A couple of years ago my BTL landlord told me he wanted to put the rent up by about 5%, as interest rates were taking there toll on him. I showed him the contract and told him to go whistle.

I suspect our initial poster is of the same ilk. They all claim they are in it for the long term, but as soon as the cold wind starts to blow, they try smartass tactics with their renters. This is mainly due to the fact they have no capital to fall back on, and may have 2 or more properties with leveraged mortgages.

Rents may go up slightly in the short term, but as more defaults kick in, the type of people who will be looking to rent their properties won't have the sort of cash required to pay high end rates. Council housing used to be the fall back for people who lost their homes. Now, in their absence, it will be private tenancies and landlords.

These disposessed renters may not be the type of people who will look after your "investment" as you expect. Quite a few will be bitter and getting poorer by the week.

This is just a consequence of the fact that the long-run risk-adjusted returns should be the same across all asset classes.

But of course in the long run we're all dead

Parasite implies one way traffic. He'll provide the tenants with shelter and maintenance of that shelter, in return the tenant provides him with income, that's more of a symbiotic relationship.

Thank you