Hi All Spainish Investors,

I wanted to get some opinions on the Jardin De Los Reyes development in Spain. Can everyone comment please?

Here are the details:-

Website located under the parent website: http://www.propertyunder100k.com/ But you can go straight to the development website on http://www.jardin-de-los-reyes.com/unique.asp

Here a little bit of info:

The Resort

Jardin de los Reyes has been planned and designed to a meticulously high-quality standard; unlike anything else seen before in Spain.

In this naturally beautiful historic area they aim to limit any effects on the environment and use the latest techniques and technology to minimise the environmental footprint of the development.

The resort will set a new standard for leisure and lifestyle resorts in Spain. Environmentally aware, cultrally rewarding, respectful of its history and sculptured to blend seemlessly with its natural surroundings; it is a new alternative for the discerning overseas buyer.

Jardin de los Reyes will be an exclusive, low density, premium leisure development with a range of cultural and social assets unequalled in Europe, which will give the project a unique character and life. The 2,055 acres (8,312,470m2) site will be mainly given over to green and forest areas with very low density dwellings.

The extensive vineyards (over 180,000 vines) will be increased and research undertaken into additional varieties suitable for the soil and area. Summer schools in viniculture and a link to Alicante University will provide research and expertise.

The developers have strived to set itself apart from being just a summer resort, by offering an array of all year-round facilities; not just for its occupants, but aiming to attract outside visitors as well.


Facilities Offered

* Full sporting village including covered olympic stadium
* Three hotels including boutique and spa hotel
* Electric transport system within the development
* Tennis Academy
* Golf Academy with 18 and 9 hole courses
* Museum with town square and commercial centre
* 200,000m2 of specialized botanical gardens
* Restored historic cortijo and museum
* Working Bedega (Vinyard) with over 260 acres under cultivation
* Large green and forest areas within the development
* Commercial area with retail outlets, bars and restaurants
* Sporting village
* Thermal Spa
* Open air amphitheatre
* Conference and exhibition facilities
* Health facilities
* Security services
* Helipad
* Petrol Station

Location Details
The Jardin de los Reyes plot is located 50 minutes from Alicante airport on the main Madrid motorway between Almansa and Enguera. The plot location itself is around 90km from the Coast.

It is possible to reach the plot directly via motorway from Valencia, Alicante and Madrid. High speed train between Madrid-Alicante and Valencia with a station just 2.5 miles from the plot. Valencia, Alicante and Murcia airports are all within 1 hours drive.

Price $70,000 Euro for a 900m2 plot

I could be wrong but is he trying to sell something?

Do you know that you can get 2-nd line from the Ocean in Brazil for 9000 Euros? Or 3-rd line from the beach in Turks and Caicos or Bahamas for 20000 Euros. Or beautiful land in Panama?

Why would anyone pay 70000 Euro for countryside plot in Spain?

No I am not an agent, just wanting investor opinions, as I am contemplating on purchasing.

Thank You

I read this thread title as -207%roi, which is probably about right for the thousands who have lost their land and/or properties due to all the nightmares that have gone on in Spain.

never buy a large plot in spain.... I would be worried about another developer coming in and grabbing more land, this land grabbing is going to put people off buying in spain...

You are spot on. DO NOT BUY INLAND IN SPAIN.

It is made to look cheap (and therefore a bargain) but do you know where this actually is?

Anything more than a mile from the coast (other than Cities) in Spain will drop by at least 50% when the crash properly kicks in. It doesn't matter how its dressed up - Country Club, Luxury Housing, Mountain Properties etc. This area specifically is a desert. They have literally picked the cheapest bit of land they can find to build this on. In the Winter the temprature will drop below -5 and in the Summer there will be no wind and temps will touch 45degrees.

Please don't invest in this. If you don't have much money and cant afford the coastal areas of Spain but want to invest abroad then aim for inland France, a farm/barn in Brittany etc or even Florida in 6 months you may find something for £40k.

In my opinion this project is about as clever an investment as investing in Turkey or Morroco and probably as risky. Although not as politically or socially volatile as those places it certainly is a different world in Spain once you venture off the beaten path.

My advice - AVOID AT ALL COST

My opinion then; Don`t do it. Spain`s oversupply is already stalling the market, won`t be long before a lot of people lose a lot of money.

I fully agree. I think the old rule applies in Spain as it does in the UK and any property market. When you start paying top prices for houses in areas were prices have been historically low then you are making a mistake.

In the UK we are going to see it unravel in places up north were you used to pay £35k for a 2 up 2 down only five years ago (I am thinking Hull, Derby, Stoke, Burnley, Bradford, Preston, Newcastle). In the same way those people paying £100k for houses or flats miles inland in Spain will see their value go back down to £30k in 3 years time IMO. Coastal Properties will see a decline but not half as dramatic as in those areas which are usually unpopular.

Spanman is right about supply, an oversupply has been happening now for the past 2 years. Unless it is first or second line I wouldnt bother looking at Spanish Property.

Which areas do you think will have such decrease?

Do you think the same is bound to happen for non beach properties in Canary Islands?

Im not sure about the Canary Islands. I would have thought prices would have stayed pretty stable there although inland areas are the first to drop in the crash because it works like this:


1991

Coastal Property - 80k
Inland Property - 20k

1994

Coastal Property- 100k
Inland Property - 23k

2001

Coastal Property - 140k
Inland Property - 28k

2003

Coastal Property - 180k
Inland Property - 50k

2006

Coastal Property - 190k
Inland Property - 90k


You see the majority of people looking to buy in Spain are looking to buy by MEWing or if retired they dont want a mortgage. This means your average Joe is looking to spend no more than £150,000. This used to get them a place on the coast but in 2001 the prices rose outside of their affordability range. Developers and EA's saw an opportunity to sell inland areas to Brits for a price they wanted to pay. As Brits neglected coastal areas because they were out of their budget they flooded a previously unpopular market and all of a sudden the demand sparked spectacular price rises. Developers couldnt believe their luck because you go only a mile inland and land is quite literally 1/10th of the price but they are now able to charge quite high prices.

IMO as soon as coastal property drops slightly in price or price expectations increase then the inland areas become barren and unpopular once more. There will be nobody looking to buy your Finca because they can buy somewhere nearer the coast for the same price, The same I am sure has happened in the Canaries although I am no expert on the Canaries.

I now understand, I was not aware that the inland prices grew that much.

In Tenerife and FUerteventura it is just the same, places far away from the Ocean are now sold at a premium.

Hi chaps. Appreciate all your comments on these project. Our company spent two months doing independent due diligence on this and reckon it was an opportunity worth pursuing. Sure, you can buy a plot of land in Brazil, 10 plots of land in Bulgaria or a holiday home in Morocco for much the same money, but the potential of this project is actually much higher than 207% and is it wrong to alert investors to it?

So, according to the web site they don't actually have planning permission.........

Absolutely correct - it´s not even been applied for and won´t be until June. 18 - 24 months until outline planning permission approved and then two years later until definitive planning approval - that´s 4 years capital growth, uplift in land status from agricultural to urbanised and development gain. All monies guaranteed and a refund on offer if the planning is not approved by a certain date. If you are looking for a holiday home in the sun, look in Murcia. If you are looking for an investment .................................

This is a joke right?

If this isn't a joke you need to have your head examined. A 40 acre plot north of Palomares was going for 230k euros when I was out there. It is only 5 miles from the sea. Land inland is ten a penny. These apartments will be worthless in a few years.

Look I own a house in Spain. Spain is a nice country but it is being ruined by petty crooks trying to con decent hard working people out of their money for these types of scams. Because of it the whole of Spain gets bad press. I remember a similar scheme to this taking place in an area called Motril. A company took more than 500 £15k deposits for one such investment. Two months later the company did one and everybody was left with egg on their faces. Sounds like this may be the same people.

What a Bargain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AdiBrown I cannot believe your sceptism
207% ROI at the very least, I mean the property market is rocketing in Spain at the moment and I would be suprised if you couldnt add a 0 to that, sell before completion and then buy yourself an island with the profit.
What a sensational investment -I think I will cast aside all anecdotal evidence and get well and truely sucked in.
How many can I buy? Is there a limit per buyer? Where do I sign up?
This is exactly what I was looking for, ampitheatre, helipad, Bedega (I dont know what that is but I know I need one of them)
Just thinking through the figures, if a 900m plot is worth 70,000, when it was probably worth 700 just a few years ago, does that must surely mean that it will be worth about 7 million come 2010.
Therefore, If I could scrape together the money to buy 10, I will be worth more than Richard Branson in no time.

Can you let the following investors know Morocco is a mistake:

Sandals resorts
Rizt Carlton
Ryan air (buying hotel in Saidia resort)
Thomas Cook - opening hotels accross morocco
Emmar (worlds biggest property developer) - Morocco is thier biggest investment after Dubai
Barcello hotels (up - market large chain brand)
Fadesa - Spains second biggest developer
The many US firms investing billions
Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, the Nevilles and many other premiership footballers choosing Morocco over Spain as sports facilities are to be in a different league
Gulf
The Bransons
Pasha night clubs

Mmmmmm, buy a detatched fully serviced villa on a luxury resort on golf on BEACH (not near beach) in Spain for £700K or 90 miles accross the water in Morocco for £170k AND get 11 on - site hotels (not 1 or 2 as with Spain) giving you free exposure, plus Europes largest most modern marina?

Spainnish property is just a storage vehicle for money, the real gains have all gone

Spanish developers sometimes attract the odd football star, whereas Saidia has attracted dozens, some of whom are named. The named ones feature in a brochure which will have been approved by them and thier advisers and in the same paragraphs this sentance appears 'investing along with many team mates'.


According to Adi Brown these footballers along with thier armies of expensive advisers are mistakenly investing in Morocco.

Adi think we should be pouring money into tired ole Spain which has hundreds of 'luxury' developments being built as we speak, talk about oversupply.

Adi, the world does'nt stay fixed in aspic my freind. Morocco has learned from the mistakes of Spain (over development, lax planning, high rise eye sores) and the whole tourism drive has been planned and is being carefully controlled.

BTW, I know a bomb went off yesterday, this doesnt alter my perspective one jot. I dont allow terrorists to rule my head unlike some people.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, it isn't Europe though is it, and I think this is the point that puts a lot of people of from investing in places like Turkey, Morroco and Egypt.

Yes, you may have fantastic gains but there is the risk; go with something 'safe' such as Spain and maybe witness slow growth (even falls) or go to a muslim country that's cheaper and take on more risk.

And yes the 'muslim' tag is relevant I feel in this post 9-11 world.

edit - from my own perspective I would not invest in Jardin De Los Reyes, but I have just agreed on a 9000km2 plot with cassita about 35mins from Gandia.

I am not going to state the cost as yet, as I don't like tempting fate, but let's just say I did not go over-budget on my total spend plan of £40K before other expenses

Yep the risk is definitely increased by fundamentalism, I guess all the big international developers, hotels, nighclubs and so on factor this in. I know I did. In the end its rentals Im after which I think will be robust for my relatively modest capital outlay. A huge proportion of the population simply base thier vacation decisions on glossy brochures, geo politics just dont enter thier heads.

I however wouldnt invest in Spain as the worthwhile gains have gone, Id sooner stick the money in the Bank. Buying there for personal reasons is one thing but as a pure investment it does'nt work for me now, in fact I term it 'money storage' rather than investment.

I think this incredibly facility laden resort in Morocco will produce as much rent as a Spanish villa costing 3 x the amount I paid, thats the point. And remember there is only one flagship Plan Azure site in Morocco, whereas luxury developments are ten a penny in Spain and have nothing like the facilities, not on beach etc etc

Glossy brochures.Never underestimate the lure of glossy brochures.

Has this project moved forward at all ?.

Radio, I had someone on the phone about it a month ago. The sales blurb and informaion they provided was more or less as stated on first page of this thread. I don't think they had full planning permission at that time and price tag for plot was the 70k Euros mentioned in original post back in February. I'm guessing progress will have been made, but no milestones met or price would be a little higher.

Would be interested to hear what Andy2k thinks now that he's no longer with Property Logic. (On progress and how this really stacks up as an investment.)

Hi Soup,

Apologies for the delay in replying - Christmas and stuff. I still believe the original offer was a very good one. The one you may have been contacted about is for smaller plots at the back of the proposed resort rather than the front line golf plots that Austrailian Investor initially posted about.

When the original plots were offered over a year ago, these were priced at 65.000 €uros. They are much larger than the plots you refer to and much better located on a south west facing hillside overlooking the proposed golf course. I think that if an investor got involved at the very beginning they would be happy now, bearing in mind that they have the option of flipping it now and taking a small profit (remember that only 20.000 €uros has been paid at this stage) or hanging on for either the "dedicated resale program" offered by the developer or build a property on the plot once definitive planning has been awarded.

In terms of planning permission progress, the path is long and arduous (although not quite as long and arduous as in the UK). The initial plans were submitted in September last year together with enviromental and socio-economic reports backing the application. There are several issues that will need to be addressed (such as the relocation of wildlife) before outline planning is permitted (the uplift of the land status from rural to urban) and then the definitive planning will be applied for.

There are clauses in the contract that state should outline planning not be awarded by December 2009 that all monies will be refunded, so it´s not really possible to lose out as far as the investor is concerned, and (in my knowledge) the project has always been promoted as a long term investment. Construction is not scheduled to start until 2010/2011, so investors should be aware that if they were considering building on their plot and either renting it out or living in it, the earliest that they will see the completed project is 2012.

I hope this helps, but please don´t hesitate to get back to me if you have any further questions.

For any cynics out there - I am not an agent selling this resort!

Thanks AndyK2 and a Happy New year to you.

Sounds like you still feel this will turn out to be a good investment, at least for those that invested at the outset (on the larger front line plots.) Are you confident those first investors will see the 207% return that has been banded about or do you feel a more modest return is likley?

Hi Soup,

I remember that the 207% quoted was based on the premise that if you invested at 65K, waited until definitive planning was approved (still several years away) and then resold for the proposed figure of 135K, this was supposed to represent a gross figure of 207% ROI. Once VAT, CGT and commission is taken into account, the net figure is around 45% - and I believe that this would have been a more responcible way to market the product.

I feel that the resale price of 135K is probably attainable in a few years for the best located properties. Many of us in Spain feel that there is a new cycle about to begin for Spanish properties and this would be the sort of development that makes it for the investors who took a chance when the market was quiet.

In answer to your question - quietly confident

Andy

Thanks Andy. I had fealt that the 207% was misleading even if projected resale prices were achieved. Just good to hear it from an agent.

I have not looked at this thread for some time
Interesting reading....if they get planning permission then it will no doubt be very good
But!
Does every investor get a ' independant bank guarantee' for any money paid?

I have not looked at this thread for some time
Interesting reading....if they get planning permission then it will no doubt be very good
But!
Does every investor get an ' independant bank guarantee' for any money paid?

No Brian. The initial offer (as referred to by AI at the beginning of the thread) had the option of a bank guarantee at a premium. The current offer (I believe) has an insurance bond covering the deposit to protect the investor.