Morning,

It's really boring when bulls spend their time calling everyone else a doom mongers. What's doom mongerish about wanting the end of an unsustainable bubble?

I'll tell you what doom is:

A whole generation of people not being able to afford housing.
Rising bankruptcies and personal debt.
The degradation of university standards and academic funding.
A winner takes all society with widening inequality.
Landlords and EAs getting paid more than doctors or scientists.
A society where we care more about our own greed than our physical and mental health.

Thats doom - and I don't see how increasing house prices are going to do anything but increase the speed at which we head towards this situation.

A house price crash is desparately needed, and probably already underway - Be happy

Absolutely. The Doom / Gloom scenario is that prices don't correct back to trend. Otherwise the economy will eventually collapse under the weight of the debt and we'll get a depression.

You talk of doom & gloom, Ill give you d & g;


Society has been wrecked by do - gooders creating a welfare monster that encourages dependancy on bogus hand - outs.

Its sad for kids of benefit junkies who themselves get handout dependant.
I grew up on a council estate and made the decision along with my 3 brothers to end the cycle. Others with exactly the same life chances as me decided to lounge around on benefits and make claim after claim for trips on pavements.

If you really want to help people - start to see things as they really are. I know a severly disabled lady with serebal paulsy. She draws no state benefits and she works full time. Yet at the same time people with 'panick attacks' and slightly painful backs lounge around on benefit. Yuk. Rant over, thats better.


Oh, and property prices will not crash, there is no such thing as this phantom 'unsustainable bubble'.

Scum.

Strangely enough I (almost) agree with you. I too grew up in council housing in one of the poorest boroughs in the country, I also had to endure the degradation of the educational system during the 80s but dispite the odds I got an education and got out.

It is true that there are people that 'end the cycle' as you put it and those that sit on their backsides, and it also angers me when I see the way rather than increasing peoples opportunities to better themselves we just give them sickness benefit and antidepressants.

However I do think property prices will crash - there's nothing phantom about 20% rises, record rises in debt and 6 times average price to income - and IMO none of those things are 'sustainable'.

And, high house prices are killing this country and generally buggering our society and they do not benefit about 80% of the population. Yet, most people are in the Matrix - defending house prices with evangelical zeal. On any rational view you would have to suspect some sort of mass brain-washing has been going on.

'You will borrow more ... you will work harder and longer hours to finance your debt ... one day your house will be worth a fortune .... don't worry about pensions - your house will be your pension ... you must move up the market ... you must borrow more .... you must transfer wealth up the property chain ... you must lock yourself into a lifetime of hard work and long hours and, as you get older, taste the fear of redundancy and of being unable to service your debts .... you must postpone having children because you cannot afford them and a nice, lovely investment to live in ....
because ....
because ....
because ....
because .... we are the bankers and we control the world and you must do as we tell you so we can get richer and richer and richer and richer.

And my how we laugh when we listen to you talk. 'I bought this place for 200k 2 years ago, its worth 350k now. We're moving up to a £450k place next - its okay we can afford the extra mortgage'

There's a good boy, a good dog, come over here so your master can pat you on the head. 'You're a very, very good boy aren't you? You've borrowed 200k haven't you boy? What a good, good boy! We're very pleased with you. You keep borrowing and keep working hard to pay us our interest and you can join us one day, can't you boy? Maybe when you are old enough to retire you can sell your investment and buy a tiny, weeny one to live in and you can let us look after your money and lend it out to other good boys. In a way you will then be able to make a nice living out of lending money too. Because, although we look nice and respectable, don't forget, we are only money lenders and everyone wants to be like us, don't they boy? Roll over and let me tickle your tummy, now roll back ... good boy ... I need to get up on your back again. You can't expect me to anything for myself can you boy? not when I've got an army of good boys like you.'

I'd second that, there is nothing doom mongersome about affordable housing, quite the opposite. Its generally a term banded about by those in the industry who want house prices to remain high and for people to continue to pay through the nose so as to boost their own profits.

[quote=Martello,Dec 14 2004, 11:22 AM]
And, high house prices are killing this country

'You will borrow more ... you will work harder and longer hours to finance your debt ... one day your house will be worth a fortune .... don't worry about pensions - your house will be your pension ... you must move up the market ... you must borrow more .... you must transfer wealth up the property chain ... you must lock yourself into a lifetime of hard work and long hours and, as you get older, taste the fear of redundancy and of being unable to service your debts

------------------------------


Alternatively........................................ with your investments you can give up work, control your life etc

lovely

Remember that article yesterday about journalists being bribed by the vested interests to ramp the market? Mass brain-washing HAS been going on. See Property Ladder, Place in the Sun, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

[quote=dogbox,Dec 14 2004, 11:28 AM]
[quote=Martello,Dec 14 2004, 11:22 AM]
And, high house prices are killing this country

'You will borrow more ... you will work harder and longer hours to finance your debt ... one day your house will be worth a fortune .... don't worry about pensions - your house will be your pension ... you must move up the market ... you must borrow more .... you must transfer wealth up the property chain ... you must lock yourself into a lifetime of hard work and long hours and, as you get older, taste the fear of redundancy and of being unable to service your debts

------------------------------
Alternatively........................................ with your investments you can give up work, control your life etc

lovely

[/quote]

Yep, that's right. That's the dream and most of the population have bought into it like moths round a candle. There is a generation now of 50 and 60 somethings that have done it - they got out with their pensions intact and their property equity pretty intact. They have done it on the back of wealth transfer from the younger generation. It won't carry on - because as a model it is unsustainable. High property prices casts enormous gloom over millions of people's lives every day as they struggle on doing crappy jobs for crappy pay to pay a huge mortgage. I can't see why anyone thinks this is a good thing. Funny, a few days ago I decided to stop coming to this web site because I find the number of self-interested blind fools that post on here depressing. I only managed a few days away. I am going to have to try harder.

Doom and Gloom is also when a handful of people think its clever to start buying up the whole street, so the rest of us well meaning folk are locked out. Its not funny at all.

Monolopy is a BOARD GAME, PLEASE DONT TREAT IT AS REAL LIFE.
Dont pass go and collect £200.

You need a new smiley on here - a hangman's noose or a gun would be nice. If you gave me a gun, I'd put a few things right before I went.

A blunt rusty sword will do - slow and painful!

[quote=dogbox,Dec 14 2004, 12:28 PM]
[quote=Martello,Dec 14 2004, 11:22 AM]
And, high house prices are killing this country


------------------------------
Alternatively........................................ with your investments you can give up work, control your life etc

lovely

[/quote]
And that takes you out of the "dependancy on others" culture does it. You're not much better than people who "trip on a pavement and claim"

Martello, please continue to contribute. I for one think you add a lot to this site, and it would be a shame to stop posting because of a minority.

I agree marshmallow. Life can be a gloomy grind but why critise those trying to escape this?

You can even totally opt out . I met a chap with 12 kids this summer. They have no TV, no designer clothes. They play games, make things and are virtually sell sufficient when it comes to veg and eggs etc.

Hats off to these people. I think this more basic/real way of life will become more popular now.

Had he not heard of condoms?


How does he put food on the table? How does he pay his rent? Does he work?

Dogbox, No one can afford the 'down to earth' myth. The countryside is owned by the ultra rich or dole scum calling themselves 'farmers' who think the tax payer should support their falling business even though they are sat on thousands in equity.

I can understand how the brainwashed public has been duped into this belief in property as an investment (always goes up??) and a retirement fund. Most of them never use their minds and actually think.

Following on from the discussion around schools on another thread this morning, I tihnk it is amazing that people do not actually think. After all of that state (or private) education they still can't think for themselves.... probably the same muppets who watch a few adverts between halves of Coronation Street and then go and buy everthing they see.... what a sad world.

I find it morally reprehensible that anyone cashes in on anothers misfortune, although most people do it unwittingly as they do not consider the wider consequences of their actions. Most baby boomers who are now trying to sell their homes and cash in do not realise that new money is not printed to pay for it... it going to come form somewhere.

And as for lazy, scrounging, layabout and workshy scumbags (not including people who have genuine short term difficulties finding work and the genuinely disabled) I don't know how they can live with themselves.

They only do it because they can and it will only get worse as the incentive to work diminishes.

Not a very nice sight George when the paper rich and debtors lose everything, and start jumping out of 10th floor windows.
As Dr Bubb said, Maybe we should all live on the ground floor, I believe he meant in economic matters.

Dogbox is the worse of the worse of the tories. The 'I climbed the ladder from my council estate' and now I want to kick it away in case anyone else tries to follow me up.

I've always been skeptical of the welfare state, as it seemed to mutate away from the vision demanded by workers into a way to keep an army of potential labour, starved of opportunties and fed on crumbs with which to threaten those workers thinking of demanding a fair wage.

Still, we're far better off with it than without it. Would dogbox be where he is without starting from a platfom of state-funded housing? Maybe if if everyone had complained about 'parasites getting cheap houses off my back' he'd have grown up in a squallid room in a tenement and his plan to 'get ahead' may have ended up trampled in the gutter.

Today council tennents are the lucky poor - lottery-like windfalls from the right to buy, and reasonably spacious housing while many families are crammed into single rooms in B&Bs, shunted around. We're heading for a new Dickensian era.

Quite wrong. New money IS printed to pay for it. That is exactly the problem.

Right to buy is a scandal for todays younger generation.

Take a load of social housing built by the baby boomers' parents in the post war reconstruction years, then sell it at a reduced price and raise the expectations of a generation and create a money for nothing society. Then create a nation of private slumlords for the new generation of poor and fund them with benefits from all of the hard working people of this country who actually produce something.

Progress?

We have bought our house many times over in the rent we have paid they will tell you. Interesting, twenty years ago a friend and I did some calculations.
We were lucky to get a comparison on two similiar properties, one council, and the other private, both built ten years back, and the price of the private property.
Remember IRs were between 8% and 15%. Convert the rent paid in comparison to a mortgage payment, and where will the right to buy tenant be, probably on the streets.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1402810,00.html


And Labour intend to make it worse.

Dog Box
"Its sad for kids of benefit junkies who themselves get handout dependant. "

better than them breaking into your house whilst your at work

"I grew up on a council estate and made the decision along with my 3 brothers to end the cycle."

Congratulations. Just because you managed to do it doesn't mean that everyone can. Would you have escaped the cycle if you lived in a cardboard box?

"Others with exactly the same life chances as me decided to lounge around on benefits and make claim after claim for trips on pavements."

American Randy Barnes holds the record for longest men's shot put. On May 20, 1990, he achieved a distance of 23.12 m (75 ft 10.25 in), in Los Angeles, California, USA. The other highlight of his career is winning gold at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, with a throw of 70 ft 11.25in more than two feet beyond his nearest competitor. My challenge to you DogBox is to repeat this man's achievement. Come on you have "exactly the same life chance". Come back to me then.


"If you really want to help people - start to see things as they really are."

I might be wrong but in your world there are winners and losers. You win because you are smart or made the effort and deserve all you have. Conversely you lose because you are stupid or lazy.


"I know a severly disabled lady with serebal paulsy. She draws no state benefits and she works full time. "

Good on her.

"Yet at the same time people with 'panick attacks' and slightly painful backs lounge around on benefit."

Ever hurt your back? I wouldn't wish it on anyone



"Oh, and property prices will not crash, there is no such thing as this phantom 'unsustainable bubble'."

Place a bet at the bookies. You seem so certain put your house on it.

All this under a LABOUR goverment Just think if Thatcher was still head girl, what Britain 2005 would be like

Not really. They're stealing from you either way.



And this is supposed to mean what exactly?



Who gives a shit?

Sorry but I haven't quiet got the nack for using the quote thingy....


me
better than them breaking into your house whilst your at work

zzg113
Not really. They're stealing from you either way.

my reply
one way is more socially acceptable.

me
Would you have escaped the cycle if you lived in a cardboard box?

zzg113
And this is supposed to mean what exactly

Starting from an estate receiving assistance is somewhat easier than starting from having to beg for food and look for a safe place to sleep. Not saying that escaping from the cycle of "handouts" is easy. Not by a long shot.

me
American Randy Barnes holds the record for longest men's shot put. On May 20, 1990, he achieved a distance of 23.12 m (75 ft 10.25 in), in Los Angeles, California, USA. The other highlight of his career is winning gold at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, with a throw of 70 ft 11.25in more than two feet beyond his nearest competitor.

zzg113
Who gives a shit?

reply
Randy's mum and dad My point was that you need to compare apples with apples. Some people have more courage than others, some people have more intelligence. we are all different. To say "i made it therefore anyone can" sells yourself short.


Sure the "i dragged myself out of the gutter and made it" story's are great. I read peoples biographies all the time and I find them inspirational. I just don't buy into the i made it through hard work and if yuo don't make it it's because you are lazy. Good on you if you made it. Just don't kick the people who didn't That's my rant and my opinion. If you have different one that's cool with me.

Well said my friend, well said.

excellent gunner,
A great retort to the narcsistic black & white thinking in Dog boxes post. Things just ain't that simple & most people do not have such 'choices' and cannot just 'decide' to change their ways for a wide variety of reasons, mental and economic/ social.

and yet Economists the world over speak of them......

do you believe in perpetual motion machines as well per chance?

I invented one once as a young lad in a dream, woke up in the morning and bl**dy well forgot how I did it. Still remember today, it was based on gravity and magnetic fields. When it is finally invented all those engineers will kick themselves how obvious and simple it is.
Where would civilisation be today without the engineers.
How many millions of years did it take to invent the wheel.

On paper it looks feasible but in practice it cannot (and never will be done). It contravenes the fundamental laws of physics

What about Quantum Mechanics??

Physics has moved on from Newton.

Didn't they recently build a very small almost-perpetual motion engine? Small as in nanometres/microns across?

In the 1950s Mechanics was a subject at my technical school. I was shown how I could lift massive weights using pulleys by the mechanics master and lots of other tricks. Quantum Mechanics that sounds interesting, never did that, must have been for you Uni fellows.
Now my Physics master was very good, he taught me that if I dropped an apple, it would fall to the ground, the force of gravity he told me. Well I already knew that everytime I fell off a b l**dy wall.

Yes, it was a uni thing. Very Mathsy. Can be summed up by a famous mis-quote:

"God DOES play dice"

maybe, but the fundamentals are still true.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

If you bounce a ball it will not bounce higher and higher until it overcomes the earth gravity and goes into space. The same is true of a perpetual motion machine. The energy cannot carry on increasing (or even stay constant) within the system without any external input - it's impossible.

However much you may think it will work on paper - it won't in practice, it can't.

The fact that people are thinking it can happen is scaring me a bit. It was supposed to be a loose analogy of an ever increasing inflatory housing boom!

almost being the operative word

Not necessarily. The Universe is expanding. What is fuelling this expansion??

Where did the initial energy/mass come from?? Nothing??



They only appear to be true at the macro level. It is when you take things to the quantum/sub quantum level that these 'Fundamentals' break down.
If we do not understand how the fundamental building blocks of matter work, how can we say that (newtons etc) fundamentals are true (perfect)??
The 'Fundamentals' that you take as gospel today, may well be redundant as our science and evolution advances.

Something to do with dark matter/energy, apparently.

But this is a housing forum, so we'll draw THAT particular discussion to a close...

Not necessary. I'm sure Bubble Pricker will move it to the Off-Topic Forum shortly. Or anyone who wants to discuss it can start a thread on the OTF.

And what value for money this forum is, having many teachers, teaching many subjects, all in one classroom, with a few disruptive pupils thrown in.
You can keep all your private and state schools.
BTW anything new happening in the housing market.

well you tell me, something is.



not completely they don't. You would need massless matter to create a perpetual motion machine. The nearest they have supposedly got is at nano level. Very very tiny I know but still with mass.



new things are discovered this is true and no laws are ever perfect (they can break down at the boundaries like Ohms Law). however nobody has created a perpetual motion machine - 350 years after Newtons Laws were proposed, even with nano technology.


This discussion has veered from HP to Physics (my fault I know) but the point I am trying to make is that a system cannot fuel itself ad infinitum and I was drawing a parallel to the housing market bubble.

Using a perpetual motion analogy is fairly safe I would say so far, wouldn't you?

"I think the property market is like a pyramid scheme..."

Perpetual motion machines will work now - we're in a new paradigm

a never ending housing bubble will occur before a perpetual motion machine does

Speculators have turned a small part of the market into something with some characteristics of of pyramid scheme, but there are also many differences..