There is this current trend to think that FTBs should be looking at 1 and 2 bed flats (and if their lucky 1 and 2 bed houses) as a first step on the ladder, and that this has always been the case. Is this Fact or Fiction?

To be honest I don't know, but we could do some research right here. For all those lucky enough to have been a FTB before the madness that have been the 80's, 90's and now 00's in terms of housing, and for everyone else their parents/grandparents experiences. Please let us know here in this thread, when and what did you/your parents/grandparents buy as their FTB property?

I'll start

My parents bought their first place in 1968, it was a 3 bed new build, but they did get significant help from my grandfather.


whos next?

IIRC Martello's FTBuy was a 4-bed detached, as was his parents before him (their FTBuy was a 4bed det. as well, not that they left him a 4bed det).

Parents; FTB 1978
2 bed terraced house for............................. £7K !
Price for similar property the year after shot up to £12K!!!! nearly 50%
Mortgage was for 12 years; relatively easy monthly payments.

Well I bought my first place in 1985 at the age of 26.

It was a three bedroom house in Bristol for £28,500. I still keep paying the endowment policy but it will come out a little short of course.

In 2000 I spent more on a car :-)

My parents put a deposit down on a 2 bed new build semi with garage and a garden in 1967.. rented and moved in once it was built. Don't know the cost.. around 8-10k I'd guess.

Looking at the area (no I'm not saying which area).. todays cost would be about £160k for a similar "secondhand" property (new builds have a minimum of 4-5 bedrooms!!)

3 bed terrace for £31,000 in 1982. Thought it might be interesting to look up salary at that time which was around £9500. Seems to me like a sensible multiple but i do remember sweating buckets when interest rates went up to I seem to remember 16%!
I also recall having house valued in late 80's at nearly £90,000. We decided to move but had buyers pull out, got gazumped in a falling market and eventually decided to sell and move in with mother in law(2 kids and dog in tow)We actually sold in 1992 for £58,000.
We effectively STR and spookilly here we are in rented having sold at a much better time on the housing cycle (cause that's what it is as those of us who have been there know).
Last time things were bad, this time the credit situation (did you see Tonight with Trevor MacDonald last night?) means that it will be financial ruin for hundreds of thousands of ordainary people trying to live extraordinary lives. Living beyond needs seems to me to be the fashion of the last 10 years.
I actually had tears in my eyes last night thinking about that poor family who having kept up with the Joneses have to sell the lot, caravan 2 cars and house. Now theres a thing a view of the market that is actually current. Their lovely home was worth many thousands less than they had expected, with the EA saying "The markets not as stroing as it was 6 months ago, but it is still very strong. I would value the property at £175,000." They had clearly been expecting £200000 which would have actually covered their debt.
I do not think that theirs is an unusual case, it is just the tip of the iceberg.
The man trying to sort out their problems just gave up, they were beyond help. The debt councelling lady made the most illuminating comment "people are using house value as a credit limit." Now that could be OK while value rises but how many people have now got debt mountains higher than asset value?

Parents place a 2 bed semi with garage for, if I recall, 7k. Would have been early 1970s.

First property 1970 2 bed maisonette with garden and garage £3,950. Repayments £28 per month at 8% went to £32 per month at 15%. Earnings 2k.
Six years on 1976 4 bed detached house £17,950. Repayments £116 per month at 11% went to £132 per month at 15%. Earnings 5k.

my parents bought a 2 bed maisonette in colliers wood, sw london for 13k in 1977, sold it for 19k 1979. same property today value c.200k.

my mum didn't work (simply didn't need to!) and my dad was a school teacher on about 5k when they bought it.

they then moved to wimbledon - paid 19k for a 3 bed house that today is worth about 400k, though they did extend the kitchen a few years back. actually even the cost of extensions/conversions has shot up - they paid 10k for an extension 8 years ago and it would cost 35k today!

First house 1987, 3 bed semi NW cost 31k.I was 25,single and earning 16k.Valued 58k in 1991.Sold for 50k in 1992

In the North West the average salary (3x) has always until recently been able to buy a nice 3 bed semi in a nice part of town. Even the lowest paid factory workers could buy terraced homes.

Now you need 7 or 8 times average salary for the same semis. It has never been so expensive in real terms than now.

We bought our first property in Southgate (N14) in April 2004 - a three bed flat in need of some modernisation for 180,000.

We have now almost finished the refurbishment (with 7,000 pounds investment a a lot of our own work). We are quite happy with the purchase, it is in a good location, has a lot of natural light due to eight windows and a brand new kitchen. We currently spend 1,000 pounds per month on a 25 yr repayment mortgage, and would have to spend the same on rent. So far our purchase has worked out as we planned. I do not expect the prices to fall significantly in our area, and we wanted to have a place that we can decorate as we want after 4 years renting (we spent 40,000 pounds in four years just on rent!). In fact I am confident that we can sell our flat with a profit in about 2 yrs when we plan to move abroad.

simon99 is right.

The turnaround in fortunes for the low and averagely paid workers has be swift and brutal - basically five years.

I can remember when we were looking at places to buy, the vendors you would meet were just very different people.

One chirpy chap selling his house was a self-employed van driver (white van man). He was moving to a cheaper area to have more space for his toddler. His girlfriend was looking after the kid, and doing a part time college course. Say he'd bought in 1999, he'd have only paid 50-55k for this place on the marketing in 2003 in the 160s, with some cheap-as-chips DIY improvments. So they were having a nice laid, back life, girlfiend spending time with the baby, doing her course. Good on them - everyone should have that freedom.

How different it would have been for us. We could have just about afforded it on an eyebrow-raising multiple, but there would have been little slack with two incomes maxed out.

At one moulding flat with free-standing electric fan heaters flat we were viewing for 115k, two other people were being shown round at the same time (2003 was a crazy year). One pricessy girl with her un-the-range new Clioparked outside shrieked, 'Oh, my god! Not for me!', and literally ran out like she'd seen a ghost.

I wondered what the conversations must have been between the vendors and their friends, 'Facking hell, Trev. Got me facking 'ouse in the market, an' all these facking posh c*nts, keep comin' rahnd. Look like they'd use a cotton bud to pick their nose summuv 'um'.

Some people think homeownership came in with Maggie. My working class Welsh grandparents bought a terraced house as soon as they were married, as did their parents before them.

Housing costs have never been so tough.

LION. I do not know Southgate and have not seen your flat,which sounds lovely.Why,it's even got windows.However,I have to say that your timescale of 2 years seems a little ambitious.You say that you don't expect prices to fall significantly in your area,but they would have to rise in order for you to profit,unless you bought well BMV.
If you are so confidant that there will be no significant drop then what attracted you to this site?

Good luck with your plan.

We bought our house, a 3 bed mid-terrace for £7000(swindon). We had a baby so mortgage based on 1 income x3, my husband worked at post office supplies so average income or lower I guess, about £2300 pa
We were fortunate that as we were on the council housing list we were eligible for 100% mortgage.
The house was on the market for £7500 but vendors agreed to reduce as that was our maximum and they were selling to move in with inlaws to save for something better.
We sold 2 years later for £17,500, told at the time that prices would never increase like that again!!!!
Vendors must have been gutted, they thought they had acted responsibly but lost out big time.

I know Southgate very well and prices are falling across the board. It has a tube and good schools which will stop prices falling drastically (as opposed to supposedly up-coming places like Hackney which have no such infrastructure and is my tip for 40% drops...)
I suspect that LION is just trying to make himself feel better about buying at the top of the market and certainly he'll have saved a few quid buying a place in need of work - but to expect to walk away with a profit in 2 years is very optimistic! We could be approaching the trough in the market by then - not the best time to sell.

My parents bought their 3 bed semi in st.albans for £13k in 1969, now valued at £245K. They still regret not buying a 4 bedroom just round the corner instead, but the price was four thousand more (17K) and they didn't think they could stretch their budget that far (now valued at £375k !!!....

My first house, purchased at the age of 30, was a three bedroom detached house. I paid £13,000 for it in 1975.

This house was representative of what the average middle class FTB bought back then. I am appalled that these same people today cannot even afford a one bedroom flat. It just shows how absurdly inflated property prices have distorted the market.

It's wicked - what we are seeing is a wholesale re-distribution of wealth from the young in favour of those who were able to buy at favourble prices in the past.

Atually it's not OK in any circumstance. A lot of people do this with credit cards as well, they treat the limits on their credit cards as TARGETS which they MUST SPEND. The rational response is actually to reduce your mortgage as fast as you possibly can; by INCREASING it you are jeopardising the roof over your head. People have such f*cked-up ideas about money.

My parents bought their 3 bed semi with garage in London N20 in 1965 for £3.5K

I bought my 1st 3 bed double fronted house in EN4 in 1983 £39950 but interest rates then were 12%.

My grandparents bought a 3 bedroom semi detached house with a £2,000 loan from the bank in the 1950's, it was sold in 2002 for £80,000 after my grandmother died, houses in that area now are around the £120,000 mark.

In 2000 i looked at a 3 bedroom end terrace, long garden, wooden garage, not too bad an area(but it had nice views of a reclamation centre) for £48,000.

3 bed terrace/end terrace in better areas were going for between £50,000 and £65,000.

These houses have more than doubled in price now, at the time my basic salary was about £17,000, so with sensible lending multiples i could have afforded these properties, however with not much savings, car loans, other expenses i did not want to take out a 100 per cent mortgage and risk going into negative equity.

Where is the well and truly p*ssed off emoticon.

First house 1975 - 3 bedroom mid-terrace in cheap area of S Essex, £10,500.
sold it for £11,750 in 1977 and bought 3 bed semi in nicer area for £16,500 (got a £14.5k mortgage and every one said we were mad) Sold this in 1994 for £95,000 and took out a £110k mortgage to buy present house for £180k- 4 bed detached in expensive area. Lots of improvements and 2 extensions and it was valued at £650,000 in April this year. Paid off mortgage with savings this year.

My first house was a two bed room semi with detached garage in 1986 (aged 18). It was priced at 16.5k which was then a bit less than twice my individual earnings. My how things change.

this thread is unbelievable. I read the channel 4 forum quite a lot and ftbers are always told we're expecting too much and to buy a one bed and shut up cos everyone has it tough.

When I buy I'd like to buy somewhere big enough to have a family, as my dream has always been to be a full time mum. i don't see this happening as there is no way even with 30% drops we could buy on my husbands salary.

The Channel 4 Forum is full of w@nkers. Read the recent thread about someone not being able to move into their new house so wanting to stay in their old house for a bit. From the reactions of the people on there you'd think they'd suggested biting babies heads off and feeding them to the wolves. Bunch of c*nts. Even with 50% falls this generation of FTBs will not be able to buy as much house for their money as the baby-boomers.

wannabe is right. The thing is, even a mouldy one-bed hole is out of reach of most FTBs across the nation.

The high cost of living, especially housing, and a deksilled, McJob-heavy economy is severely impoverishing 20 and 30 somethings. In fact, a decade ago during the mass-downsizing era, sociologists were identifying a genration that do not witness the same abundance as their parents. The mid-90s saw the Tories improving the economy rapidly but the media endlessly pondered why there was no feel-good factor (hardly a mystery when companies were making huge profits and thanking workers with the sack).

I know I bang on about his stuff, but I do feel that the folk in highly-paid sinecures that can afford to post here all day don't realise just how badly off the younger generation are as a whole.

And if you want to be a Mum or a Dad, well, face poverty or forget it.

Well....... The big difference is the absence of wage inflation. If you look at my post 4 or 5 up, I really struggled to buy my first house, which really wasn't very nice. I could only have afforded a I bed flat in a better area, but chose a cheaper area and slightly bigger house. The big difference was that after yearly 20% wage increase (yes really) your huge mortgage became manageable, and you could think about trading up.

SO.... oldies like me are not far off the mark when they say it was hard to buy a house, however inflation helped. My elder brothers had to rent for 3 to 4 years, do without and save to get on the ladder.

I think with globalisation, huge immigration and outsourcing, we will never see large-scale wage inflation again.

An improving economy does not= more jobs, or more well-paid jobs. Actually, an improving economy can sometimes mean less jobs, as firms increase profits by cutting costs (ie jobs). For every increase in productivity, there is one more job lost.

Well I hope not. Whilst good for mortgagees it was a disaster for people on fixed incomes e.g. pensioners.

Having tackled inflation, the property market just needs to wake up to the fact that buying a house is now "long-term" loaded i.e. prices need to drop to levels that allow people to trade up throughout their lives.

For these reasons, prices simply have to fall - there is nothing to prop them up and cause future increases in values. The recent years' increase is simply a speculator fed bubble, which has to burst - it's not natural or real.

Tell that to all the FTBs who panicked in recent years and bought for fear that they would be priced out forever. Tell them that the telephone-number-size mortgage on their bank statements every month isn't real.

I know all that. I meant the recent increases aren't aligned to wage inflation, as they were in the past. Ergo they will drop. Sensible people don't lie about their incomes to buy an unrealistically valued house - the one's who did were foolish.

I admit that the timing of our first purchase may not have been good, we should have bought sth when we moved to UK in 2000. However, you only know such things afterwards. In 2000 all my colleagues and many "experts" said that house prices are far too high and that they soon will come down. Four years later we decided that we don't want to rent any longer, and we were lucky enough to find a suitable flat in a nice area. We got it about 5-10% below market value because the vendors wanted to move quickly, and because the decoration was old and ugly - typically English with loads of strong colours and old, smelly carpets. I cannot understand how people can live with smelly carpets - and in one room they did not even remove the old carpet but put a new carpet on top of the old one. UGLY!. We removed every carpet, wallpaper and furniture and decorated the flat from scratch. Now everything is nice, new and bright. Owning and renting is a very big difference, and we are so happy that we no longer have to rent. This is worth the risk of buying at the wrong time. And I am not convinced that it really was the wrong time as such an opportunity (our flat) does not come often.

This site gives a good overview about positive and negative house price news, so I check it frequently. Bad news do not really concern me, because we would only sell if we can sell with a profit. However, our plan to move abroad does not depend on the value of our flat but only on job opportunities, as we did not overstretch ourselves at all with the purchase of our flat.

you clearly bought at the top of the market, will struggle to sell at a profit for several years to come, plus tied up what appears to be a very large amount of cash (to get a repayment mortgage to work out the same as rent in this market takes quite a low LTV ratio) into an asset with a good chance of short/medium term decline. your saving grace is the repayment aspect, and probably justifies being able to take a long term view with what you've got.

My parents first house was a three bed terraced, but that doesn't really do it much justice as it was (and still is) massive, my sisters purchased in the late 80's was a 2 bed terraced bought for £45K went down to about £32k in the crash and is now worth about £100K.

My first house bought in 2000 was a 4 bed detached, sounds a bit better than it was but it was pretty good.

I agree that I don't think people in general realise how bad it is for FTB's.

Its OK to talk about a 1 bed flat as a first rung on the ladder but thats if its a single person on a lower than average wage, if your a young couple I think you should be looking at a 2 bed terrace place. The problem is a 1 bed flat is beyond most peoples reach these days.

Its already been mentioned but I think wage inflation is one of the big problems, my salary for example has gone down over the last 4 years rather than up. The idea you can buy a one bed flat and then trade up just doesn't work any more.

In a low-inflation environment the property ladder is dead.

Thanks for all the replies.

some very quick number crunching shows that no-one bought a 1 bed place to start, and a third bought 2 beds and two thirds bought 3 beds! so a couple in their late 20's early 30's CAN expect to buy a 3 bed place.

Interestingly during the 70's the trend was reversed with more 2 beds, and no-one has bought in the 90's. Are their really no OO out there who bought their first place in the 90's and is posting on this website? are they all not interested?...in fact none from 88 throught to 99.

sample size is small, but with 4 in the 60's, 6 in the 70's and 6 in the 80's, seems odd to have none in the 90's

keep 'em coming, looks like we've blown another property myth out of the water!

I think some of the older generation just don't think about it, their attitude is that we had to struggle so anybody who complains wants it handed to them on a plate. What they don't consider is that many young people do expect to struggle but are just a little peeved that they have to struggle to by a tiny one bed flat rather than a 2 bed terrace.

I could buy a 2-3 bed terraced where I live but refuse to do so when they are 8x the average wage. I'm fortunate enough that me and my wife earn good money, not loads but well above average, but all we can really afford (still have some money free) is a one bed flat.

Another problem is that people are buying later and later in life, many of my friends are in their later 20's and early 30's and are still nowhere near buying property. The idea that their wages will increase as they progress up the career ladder is no longer relevant as many of them are well advanced before they buy that 1 bed flat.

My parents were in married 1/4ers until I was 8 , there first house was a 3 bed semi with extension and a big garden.
Cant remember the cost but it was in .......... 70's , dont want to give my exact age away

Oh well stuff to do if I 'm going to sell the house , EA is round a week Monday for valuation.

l8rs

Alarm bells.
You have bought at the top of the market. You seem like a rational minded, intelligent individual but you are displaying classic tendencies of vested interest denial!
There is a great possibility (in most peoples' on the site, a damn certainty), that your flat will be worth considerably less than you bought it for in 2/3 years time. Your intention of 'selling only if you can make a profit' may prove difficult. What do you do if you really want to move? Stay where you are on principal? Be prepared to sell at a loss - all is not lost, though; you'll buy somewhere else which is 30% cheaper than it is now!

There is a mode of thinking with so many folk at the moment (my property CAN'T go down in value!!!) and when the Spring bounce fails to materialise there will be a lot more pennies dropping...

We can move easily as our savings/salary allow us to let the property and make up for the difference between mortgage and rent easily. We could have bought a 350 k property (even without taking into account my wife's salary). However, because of justified concerns about the market situation we bought a 180 k property in need of refurbishment instead. After four years in rented accommodation renting was no option anymore for us - we wanted to start a family and have a place of our own. And 180 k was not small change for us, but not really a lot either.

I agree that these are difficult times for FTBers, and I dont know how any FTBer can afford to buy - well, anything really - in London without earning several times the average salary (as we do). I wish you all Good Luck with your property purchases, but don't be too disappointed if the prices do not fall as much as you hope. I generally think the British property market is mad and unfair, it is a bit like gambling, it is much better in Germany or Austria (where I come from), where property prices are stable and property is seen as what it should be: A place to live (for life) and not as an investment. The whole property ladder / FTBer thing is typically British - in Austria people normally save and then buy or build their first (and last) property in their life. My parents first property was a six bedroom three bathroom house in Austria which they built themselves on average salaries. And they still have it. No ladder required! My next property will also be a nice, detached house in Austria - after I have made enough money in Britain to buy such a property in Austria outright (this is the only reason why I still stay in this rainy country).

Parents bought home on single wage earners salary 1967, cost £4,300, salary £1875. Valued at £240,000 Spring this year.

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Call me a wild optimist but I predict a sharper fall than most people are predicting.

Why?

It's already happening. Prices are being slashed now

Just wait until Spring when the FTB's still haven't got the money. Gee, facy that!

Watch the "closing down sale/price slash/total discount warehouse" fun

BRING IT ON!!!

Bought our first property in 1975, 3 bed bungalow, in Bromley Kent (now apparently in South London!) for £10K.

My wife stayed at home and looked after the family, and I kept us and paid the mortgage, on a shop assistants wages.

I don't know how they dare talk about affordability today.

I wish you the very best, LION - any cubs on the way, then?!

My parents bought their first property in 1963 a three bed-roomed bungalow in their mid-thirties I believe they paid £2,200 for it.

I bought my first property in 1987 a one bed-roomed flat at the age of 35 after renting for 18 years.

It cost me £31,000 I was earning £15,000 a year or £1,250 a month gross within 18 months interest rates were up to 15.5% and I was paying 50% of my net wages in mortgage payments. Other flats in the same building were not selling at £28,000 in 1992. I bought another one in 1996 for £40,000.

I sold both flats after renting them out for some years in 2002/2003 for £124,950 & 117,500.

Buying a first property has always been a stretch but I would not buy at current prices. It is just a matter of timing the only reason prices have got to these crazy levels is because many people are not prepared to wait for the inevitable correction.

f*ck, that must have been horrible.

Well when I have to refer to that period of my life I call it the rock and roll years sounds better than the woodchip wall years. Still I was young

The simple truth is that this government more than any other in recent times have pulled up the ladder behind them. I find it unbelievable that even those of them who made it up from working class backgrounds (which isn't that many of them, but there are some) can impose tuition fees on a new generation that will condemn them to 5-10 years of poverty after graduation.

Being from a working class background myself and having graduated 5 years ago I am astonished at how many more barriers my sister (who is 7 years younger than me) faces to getting ahead.

I earn more than double the average london wage as does my girl friend and yet we would struggle to afford a two bedroom house in a decent area and our tax bill is huge. The massive injustice of exempting PPR's from capital gains tax has completely distorted the value of housing in comparison to other asset classes and has warped our entire economy but no political party would ever the b*ll*cks to reverse it as it would mean certain policitical suicide.

No doubt I will once again be derided as a bitter FTB, well actually yes I am bitter. I am sick to death of paying huge taxes from my hard earned salary while other people sit on the ar*ses and make a fortune from housing (people who got their houses at huge discounts under the right to buy scheme particularly p*ss me off) and pay no tax on it.

I would be grateful if someone to explain to me how this tax exemption can be regarded as fair when people already pay no tax on the "income" they get from their property (in saved rent).

Right then - rant over.

Your right no government is going to tax capital gains on PPRs.

So there is no point in ranting about the unfairness of it all.

It’s just a game learn the rules and play it.

My parents bought a 3 storey end of terrace with cellar and garden in 1970 in Manchester for about £1k I think, no mortgage. My dad came to this country in the early 60s flogged his guts out doing the jobs the natives didin't want to do, scrimped & saved to start his own business in 1968.